Hmmm... I wonder what seems to be attracting so many homeless, jobless youths to the city of supPortland?

That's an interesting question, schting, but the answer needs placing in historical context.

Homeless jobless youths have always come to the big city in search of excitement, since Jack Kerouac wrote On the Road. In the early '80s, Stark Street, where the Ace Hotel is now, was a haven for young men to prostitute themselves for support.

Agencies like NAFY, it seems, are replacements for that kind of ad-hoc support for young men, so in many ways, it's probably a moral improvement. Plus, you can build condos, and delicatessens, and so on, when there isn't rent hanging out on the corner.

Of course, Stark street isn't half as junky chic as it used to be. But that's the price you pay for progress, I guess.

The argument is that if you got rid of the services, you'd just send many of these kids back to prostitution. But Denfeld's book argues that a new variety of "street kid" has emerged. Someone who is in fact an adult, but "youth identifying" as a way to avoid being held responsible for criminal behavior.

It's hugely controversial, of course, and I'm yet to finish the book. And I really, sincerely, don't want to knock people who provide support for Portland's homeless people.

I do think this is an interesting distinction to be drawn, however. And it does throw the sit/lie into a new perspective for me.

Basic economics tells us when you subdidize someething, you get more of it.

"Someone who is in fact an adult, but 'youth identifying' as a way to avoid being held responsible for criminal behavior."

Adultss affecting faux-childish appearances, demeanors, and activities?

That can't be the Portland I know.

frankly, i don't give a shit. i've lived in this town my whole life, and i've been around homeless kids enough to know that a large majority of them are not anywhere NEAR either mentally ill enough or addicted enough to qualify as needing any sort of sympathy/support whatsoever past some very limited and very short-term 'move along' contributions.

these kids are, for the most part, flat out trying to live a lifestyle... and they are sucking dry much needed resources from people who are incredibly in need of it.

i know a lot of these kids are escaping a difficult home situation, and many haven't graduated from school, many don't have any job skills, blah blah blah.

so you have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. get in fucking line. so you have to look in the mirror and realize that no legitimate business will ever hire you if you don't clean yourself up. get in fucking line. so you have to think to yourself that you're not gonna get very far in life if your idea of a good morning continues to be scoring some really pure heroin or stealing a case of beer. get in fucking line.

i was sick of hearing the ridiculous sob stories from street kids ten years ago.

When I came here back in 96' Portland was famous for it's climate and how easy it is to live on the streets. Free social services and food cards as well as free MAX rides. I came because it was considered the Silicon Forest and I wasn't up for California or Californians.

I didn't have a job, but I got one after about a month. Things have tightened up some for everyone, but there is a culture of support in Portland and it has been abused by bums. I'm glad that we're on the subject of homeless vs. intentional homeless because they're vastly different.

I can't stand the kids and they don't make me think of Kerouac, they make me think of freeloaders full of unearned entitlement and I wonder who raised them.

I don't think they want to "get in fucking line," though, lyle. That's the issue.

Then it's a question of whether somebody has the right to be an asshole, hanging out on a street corner, intimidating suburban shoppers.

Personally I'd like downtown to be economically more viable. But I do think (in case you hadn't noticed) that everybody should have the right to be an asshole.

It's a tricky situation.

"I can't stand the kids and they don't make me think of Kerouac, they make me think of freeloaders full of unearned entitlement and I wonder who raised them."

Jack Kerouac was a freeloader, a mama's boy. So, if you feel this strongly about street youth you would have to feel the same about any number of young generations of Americans before them.

they do, though, matt. because if you're asking someone to respect your right to sit on your ass downtown, harrassing people, stealing, using drugs, getting into altercations, creating pseudo gangs, and generally doing everything that responsible citizens have no business doing... go out in the middle of nowhere, buy a farm, and do it there.

the whole point of a community, especially a community center like downtown, is that if you're gonna visit that center (let alone live in it) you should at least have the decency to try to follow the norms that everybody else is following.

why would you find yourself in that center of the city and purposely, willfully try to do the exact opposite of everybody around you unless were severely wanting of even a minimal amount of respect and common decency?

if you're not trying to get in line, fucking shake that officer's hand next time they give you a summons, and say you congratulate them on being a respectful moral enemy that's just doing their job.

My bad. Kerouac was some bullshit too! That book was a pretty boring trek across America. Big deal...screwing a nurse in the car. Whatever.

I hate Kerouac as much as I enjoy him. But for all his freeloading momma's boy alcoholism he could write. And he gave his life to asking questions without knowing the answers, for which I've got to respect the guy.

Trouble is, he romanticized idea of a lonely rebel, wandering through the city. That might have worked in 1950, before we built the Pearl District, but the city isn't a place for rebels, any more. In fact, I'm not sure where rebels are supposed to go, these days. Gresham? God forbid, the internet?

Are these kids rebels in the James Dean mold? Should we respect and romanticize them? Or what?

Blah. I sound like my dad. Good night.

You make some great points, Matt, but the reality is people aren't being written citations because of their age, it's because they are frequenting what Portland calls "high traffic" areas.

If a 50-year old man or woman sat down in front of Rite Aid, or any other business in a five block radious of Pioneer Square and continued to panhandle, they would write them a ticket too.

"But it seems that’s not the case. It’s a two-fold ordinance, used on the one hand, by police, to initiate conversations with the more compliant adult homeless population."

What your calling an ordinance to initiate conversation for older folks is in fact oppression brought on by months/years of being told what to do. It has nothing to do with gaining access to services. No soup kitchen, day access center or shelter is going to stop the crisis we call homelessness.

If this was about solving the problem - it would be outreach workers armed with housing vouchers making contact w/individuals sitting, or lying on our streets. But since we haven't come that far, criminalization is the only logical alternative for some of the smartest individuals in our city and country.

And for the cats commenting on services attracting more homeless folks - pick up the new Street Roots on Friday. The feature is on the magnet theory and we take a look at six different cities up and down the west coast and ask that very question.

Alot of the homeless kids I have run into are part of the LGBTQ dispora and are homeless due to beeing kicked out of a relatives house for simply beeing who they are.

They aren't rebels, they're just lazy and, as someone else pointed out, full of self-entitlement.

Amen to what Lyle said, and then some.

I personally find the various charity hawkers downtown far more obnoxious than the street kids. At least the street kids will leave you alone once you turn down their request for money.

I have read Denfeld's book, just finished it last week actually, and it does make you view the street kids in a different light, though for me it was a more sympathetic light. There are the older "leaders" of these so-called "street families" and like impromptu leaders everywhere they tend to attract those that follow.

But does the presence of street families give the city or the PBA any right to selectively enforce or discriminate against these kids? No. Does the preference these kids seem to have for Portland mean that we shouldn't treat them the same as any other person, homeless, young or not and guarantee them basic human rights? I don't see how.

Just my two cents.

Rebels are lazy, and it takes work you know, especially if it means surviving in the rain and the wind with the rats and the crows.

There's nothing romantic about being homeless, but as far as that goes, there's nothing romantic about being a rebel either.

It's only romantic from afar, or when reading about it in a book.

I always wonder why the street folk hang in front of that Rite Aid. If you're looking for handouts why post up at a discount pharmacy? Walk over another couple of blocks and chill in front of the Nordstrom, follow the cash.

Then again, you don't often end up on the street unless you're lacking a bit of common sense.

Oh come on! Am I supposed to pick up my monitor and turn it sideways?

Fear is a choice. The same kids have been doing the same things since time began. In the 40 they were swingkids, in the 50 they were greasers, in the 60's hippies et al. People fear what they cannot or do not want to understand and as we age we stop being able to understand kids.

Choose not to fear them, choose to engage them. People might be surprised at what happens. I have been on the Max when people have had problems and someone jumps in and tells them to shut up et al. That is just silly. People talk to these kids like they are stupid. Most of them have more life experience than we can shake a stick at.

Fear is pointless. Fear has lead to all of the great injustices of our world.

Oh, I don't think that anyone fears them. Most of us just fear the repercussions of law enforcement after punching one the slacking bastards in the face after being followed and harassed for cash. Yeah, I said it, followed.

If you can follow me down the street, talking trash, then you can get a full time telemarketing job too, because they are always hiring. And while I'm at it, so are those annoying petitioners, but hey, at least they're trying to not be bums. (sort of)

A: Never trust Rene Denfield. She's a malicious hack who masquerades as an investigative journalist. Stay far, far away.

B: This also probably has to do with Rite Aid complaining about street kids hanging around. Most street kids are pretty benign, especially toward the world at large. They may fight among themselves, steal a little here and there, but it's more about survival and living on their own terms than it is about what Erik Sten or some cop sees as the picture of larger society. Many if not most have been ostracized, abused or worse and are trying to deal with it in their own way and also by sticking with other people in similar circumstances. Don't get scared of them. Buy them lunch.

schting:
I don't know about you but I tend to get followed by the older homeless more than the street kids.

"Most of us just fear the repercussions of law enforcement after punching one the slacking bastards in the face after being followed and harassed for cash. Yeah, I said it, followed."

I'm sorry, that is a cop out. If someone is harassing you, deal with it. Hell my SO had someone try and grab her so she grabbed their finger and twisted. It worked.

Kids congregate in downtowns, it is what they do, it is what they have always done.

If they want to stay on the curb with a sign or ask for cash as I walk by, I can deal with it. It's just when I get followed that makes me want to draw blood. A lot of them try to make people feel like they owe them a living and it makes the store look bad for putting up with it and it makes people avoid the place, so I can understand the cops for once.

It's kids like these that make the truly homeless look like villains because most of us can't or just don't have the time to differentiate. Fuck those punks.

schting:
Maybe it is a different perspective, I grew up around these kinda of kids. Even as a kid myself I took care of them, many had addictions and huge problems and no real family. I would take them in, feed them when I could. They are kids, they are supposed to fuck up. I just think if people got a thicker skin and remembered what they did as kids there would be nothing to worry about. I don't want to be followed around either. Coincidentally the law seems to target just what you said was perfectly fine. If they are following you then they are not sitting or lying on the ground.

Also, specifically, the kids under 18. Yes, we do owe them a living, obviously they don't have parents who give a fuck. They are kids for chrissake.

You're right Prae, they are kids, but I also know how kids grow up and often it's not too pretty, is it? Look, I don't want to sound like I'm hunting the little bastards, but I've been tempted to educate a few of them with a roundhouse to the skull. Yes, some very, very, very tough love.

In the past I've talked to kids and have given them some pretty good advice on how to get by with dignity. A lot of kids today are very hard headed, some hard enough to kick and don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about; you're thinking of one right now.

It's just the stuff that makes me avoid downtown, no big deal, there are other places to drink and shop, so I go there instead. Apparently, a lot of others feel the same way and the businesses have suffered for this and have either moved or asked the police to get involved, hence the "Sit/Lie Ordinance Really Targeting Street Kids".

schting:
The funny thing is, I would have no problem with someone getting clocked for getting out of line. Thats part of the dichotomy that is me. The thing is these kids congregate in the same kind of areas in every city.

Honestly in full disclosure I may be a bit jaded on Sit/Lie Ordinances. My small town I grew up in started one in the downtown. This is where my friends and I hung out. We were "goths" and similar in many ways to the punks of this generation. I was also instrumental in challenging this law and the way that it was put in place. The law targeted us. Quite simply the first tickets given were to friends of mine. They stopped to wait for me to get some food and they would not leave me as I was the minor at the time. They were ticketed in the 5 mins it took me to get a burrito.

They all had long hair and some were in make-up. The interesting thing is as they were being cited for 300+ dollars there were a group of young preppy kids playing hacky-sack right there who were ignored and never got any kind of citation. In court they were railroaded and jerked around. Finally everyone who was there appeared in court and they were let off after a few hours of testimony. Interestingly the cop and city had a lawyer present but they changed the citation from a misdemeanor to a traffic violation so the kids could not get free council.

I am very mistrusting of any law that targets specific groups.

It's a good thing thing that there are so many more places for me to drink and shop just over the bridge. It's a little bit funny each year when the stores downtown get all desperate for business around the holidays and the street people become the scapegoats, and I wonder what they should do about it.

Like I said, I just avoid it all now, the street kids, the smell of urine in Old Town, the bums, depressing services scenes. It's too bad really, because I LOVE the street musicians and I like giving them my money for busking out loud. It's the best and I think that they're the example that an alternative kid should live up to.

Living on your own terms and working for a living in your own way is awesome, if that's what you want to do. Just get off your ass and quit being a bum.

"It's too bad really, because I LOVE the street musicians and I like giving them my money for busking out loud. It's the best and I think that they're the example that an alternative kid should live up to."

I think we can fully agree on this.

Agreed Prae. What can we do to turn street kids into buskers for a better tomorrow? What if instead of donating cash to kids, people could donate cash for instruments and lessons for kids to play in public while they're hanging out looking cool? The rebel shit is out of date; bring on the Mariachis!

I used to require some trick or joke when asked for spare change by the kids downtown. Some would react with anger/shock and walk away, but others (the majority) would tell a joke or do a trick and I'd give them some change. One guy did a double backflip off the wall and I gave him two dollars - mighty impressive! Ahh, how I miss working downtown. All street people should be required to have some skills like these...like filthy little pierced monkeys.

Oh man!!! I remember the back flip guy; he was so cool. I haven't seen in him in some time and I often speculated that he landed on his head or something. He always got my money because I never got tired of watching the stunt after a few drinks, and neither did my friends. Bring that guy back!

The street kids are definitely into the "grunge lifestyle".

There is no doubt about it.

It's a pretty good view of American culture.

throughout history homeless or disposessed youth has been an issue. In the United Kingdon for instance, stealing a loaf of bread would get you a free trip to Australia for a long time (and Ironically, Georgia as well).
also, Xenephon's 10,000 were soldiers that had just finished a war and ended up going off to fight another war because the Greek city states realized they did not want a bunch of unemployed soldiers hanging around.
durring the Napoleonic Wars, the British preffered to use cavalry rather than infantry to break bread riots because the cavalry could use their horse rather than the bayonet.
in Ireland they would move in and tear down the houses in areas where they thought there were to many people... which may be in part at least why we have so many Irish decendents in the U.S.
wanting to get rid of "excess" people by moving them is not new, even a "sit lie" law is not new, I just wish we would come up with better ideas, like more affordable housing and living wage jobs instead.
thanks
Patrick