If Paulson wants money, he should hit up daddy and his $700 billion account from Congress. NOT A DIME FROM US IN PORTLAND.

Except, of course, soccer fans. You're welcome to give him as much of your own money as you want.

Keep your hands off of our public dollars.

nice comment mikey. any other generic, uninformed, and insanely ignorant assumptions you'd like to share with the class?

Sure thing, loser. Check this out- a world class sports facility built without one cent of public financing:
http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/national…

Surely, if soccer is worth $85 million, Paulson can easily find private financiers who would be happy to share in the riches. As a major sports fan, I'd be happy to go to a Timbers game in a beautiful park built without money diverted from roads, sewers, schools, and social services. If it's such a good investment for the city, it must be even more attractive for private investors.

Thanks for the invitation,
Mikey

Gimme a referendum and I'll help vote it down. Put money towards something worthwhile, not this losing proposition set to make a rich guy richer and screw the people of Portland....who still won't give a fuck about soccer if this thing gets built.

There's an easy way to get the amount of money down. Turn PGE park into a rectangular stadium, but then drop this idea of a baseball stadium in Lents completely, and let the Beavers move to a city that actually wants them. Nobody gives a rats ass about baseball.

Mikey

Your lack of basic facts is about as bad as your writing.

You do know the city owns PGE Park right? And Paulson pays the city rent for the Beavers and the Timbers. You also know that no owner in his right mind would invest $40 million dollars in infrastructure improvements to a facility he doesn't own? You also knew that the plan being put forward will not divert a cent from existing sources as the plan is to bond the money with the bonds to be paid off over time from revenue and ticket taxes etc. You knew that right?

You also knew that by advocating for Merritt to simply build his own stadiums you are paving the way for him to vacate PGE Park after his rental contract expires in 2011. Remind me who would occupy the 100 plus dates on the calendar the Timbers and Beavers currently take up?

Cause if Merritt left PGE for a private stadium who would be on the hook for a giant empty behemoth? Why the Portland taxpayers and paying the existing debt on the stadium WOULD certainly take money directly from existing funds.

I am assuming you knew all of this and decided to spout off anyway because if you didn't then you really look like an ass.

I am sorry Stu but you are wrong, people do care about baseball. I regularly attend both Timbers and Beavers games. I would like to review something you may have forgotten:

You are not everybody. You are not a trend setter. Just thinking something does not make it universal truth.

Also to everyone, you can build a park without public financing but you need a large Corporate Sponsor and I don't think PGE's pockets are deep enough. Anyone willing to pay $25 to sit in 107?

Finnegan, you're not teaching me anything new. I'm a long-time baseball fan and a Winter Hawks fan in exile due to the horrid mismanagement of that team. I'm well aware of the city's investment in PGE Park.

If Paulson wants to improve the facility, he should invest in it himself. Period. What's so hard about that? He thinks the soccer team will make him some money- he can take out some loans (credit being more available now due to daddy's bailout plan), invest in the facility, and repay the loans based on the money he gets back from his immensely more valuable soccer team.

PGE Park is prime, prime real estate. Should the park be vacated, I have no doubt that the city could sell the park for a nice chunk of change- perhaps to Mr. Paulson- or could redevelop the land into something more desirable for the city.

If it's a bond measure, and he just wants to borrow money, great- let him find a willing financier. If he wants to invest in the city's infrastructure to make his team more profitable, more power to him. That would show that he's about Portland first, not Merritt first.

Read up about the sad saga of the Winter Hawks, whose recent out-of-town owner tried to hold the team and the city hostage to get $12 million in improvements to the Coliseum. If he would have invested the money himself, he'd be in far better shape than he is now.

The city is not beholden to sports teams or their owners, and should never be. It is a PRIVILEGE to be able to play in the heart of this city, not a right.

Paulson has certainly learned from daddy about how to take public money and give it to his friends. We should not be as foolish at home as we have been in the federal domain.

I look forward to Paulson stepping up, showing how much he values Portland, and committing to making improvements in the park with his own money.

Or moving elsewhere, to some slutty city with its legs open wide for his type of corporate plunder. Like Spokane.

One more thing- you talk about open dates... that's going to be a pretty empty park all summer long if Paulson gets his way- remember, he wants a soccer-only facility....

I love how it's been eight years since Pac Bell Park opened in San Francisco, and yet people still today try to argue that it was exclusively privately financed. Sigh.

News flash: No major stadium has ever been exclusively privately financed.

Mikey said: "without one cent of public financing"

EXCEPT

"$15 million in tax increment financing by the city's redevelopment agency."

That's from the link you provided, Mikey.

How is there any incentive of any kind for an owner to put money into a stadium he doesn't have revenue control over? That has to be the most ridiculous retarded ideas I have ever heard...did you even think that through??? No business owner in thier right mind would invest in something they have 0 control over, whats to stop Portland from turning around and renting it out to someone else after he's paid for the increase? Or better yet raise the hell out of the rent he pays because as you mentioned, it is worth more now? How does that work into your theory of being able to pay back the privately raised funding? Right...it doesn't...good try tho!

The REVENUE bonds (which if you understand...DON'T USE ANY OF A CITIES GENERAL FUND MONEY AND ARE ONLY PAID BACK FROM REVUNUES GENERATED BY THE PROJECT THEREFORE NOT TAKING 1 CENT FROM ROADS OR ANY OTHER SERVICES) will not hamper the general fund at all and would not expose the city of Portland to any extra risk assuming anyone of even cursory knowledge of a municipal bond would be able to do. This is a no brainer, cities all over the U.S. are building stadiums for 4x times this amount and Portland gets 2 new stadiums that ALSO benefit PSU and other renters.

Mikey,

a) Merritt Paulson already is investing his own money to the tune of $40 Million.

b) Please point to one example where a business owner in the city of Portland invested $40 million into a publicly owned facility without expecting a return on his investment (i.e. owning a part of the stadium). I am sure Paulson would be happy to invest $40 mill into the stadium improvements if he then owned part of the stadium. The problem is the city has no interest in not being the sole owners of the facility for the obvious reasons you point out.

c) Comparing the Winterhawks to a MLS club is stupid. MLS laps the WHL 5 times over in attendance, TV contracts etc (ESPN every Thursday and Saturday)

d) And this is very important - Paulson is giving up a portion of his ticket revenue to pay off the construction bonds. The deal is complicated but the concept simple - a certain percentage of revenue from tickets, concessions and parking from both the Lents location and PGE would go to satisfy the debt payments. This is money directly out of Paulsons pocket. So he is using his own money.

e) Your myopic vision of what constitutes a business is silly. The Timbers MLS would be a business just like any other. Portland cuts deals all the time to encourage and invest in business growth inside city limits cause more businesses mean a better tax base and more jobs. I think the 323 so living wage construction jobs over the next 3 years building Beavers stadium and remodeling PGE Park look awfully good right now in this economy. Now is NOT the time to shrink back. This is when leveraging public dollars can help us ride this financial tsunami with some living wage jobs.

Really- what happens when they default on those bonds? Who gets left holding the bag? You're saying it would be ridiculous for a business owner to take that risk- then why wouldn't it be ridiculous for the city to take the risk? And a soccer-only facility benefits no one but the Timbers. Not PSU, not Lincoln HS, not you and me. The Timbers. Merritt Paulson. If it's such a good idea, why isn't Paulson able to find private financing for it?

GLV- you're sort of right, but the TIF is a different sort of beast than direct public financing. It comes from the redevelopment agency (the PDC in Portland) and applies only to redevelopment areas. If Paulson wanted to build in Lents, the PDC would have TIF money available (but a sports facility would not be a good use of that money in the Lents neighborhood). It's not money out of taxpayer pockets- unless the property values don't go up from the development and, as in the case of defaulted bonds, the city is left holding the bag. That $15 million was about 5% of the cost of PacBell park. Sort of like if Paulson was asking for $4 million, rather than $85 million. Still, in my opinion, a ridiculous expenditure for the city, especially considering the value of the real estate of PGE Park.

Finnegan, if it's his own money, then why doesn't he want to spend $85 million more of his own money to do it? It's because he wants the city to absorb his risk. It's that simple. Paulson and his dad think the public should absorb all the risk, but they should take all the reward. Show me where, in his plan, if the Timbers are more successful than expected, the city gets more than just the $85 million bond repayment- and don't tell me about the indirect benefits. I'm talking cash. If they get, say, $100 million from TV- do we, the city, get a cut of that?

Paulson and his dad see us taxpayers as an unlimited cushion for their own risk. If the city loans him the $85 million, he should loan the city 70% of the Timbers, and he should absorb more of the risk. Then, he can buy that back from the city over time. If the value goes up, we get a profit. If it goes down, we structure the deal so that he's still left holding the bag for $85 million. Kind of like how predatory lenders, pawn brokers, and mortgage brokers treat the general public, with their risk now absorbed by the feds through Paulson's daddy's bailout.

If it's such a hot idea, why isn't the city competing with private financiers to pony up the dough? Anyone?

Mikey, I am well aware of how tax increment financing works, and it absolutely is public money. Certainly you know that other taxing authorities (Multnomah County, for example) must forego any increased assessments that would occur (even increases that would have occurred without the redevelopment), because those dollars are diverted to pay off bonds that resulted in the redevelopment.

My point was simple: you said they didn't use any public money. You were wrong.

GLV- a redevelopment agency is not the same as a city or county government and its pool of money does not come from nor fund the same sources. In the case of Portland, the PDC is very much a public-private venture (and we can debate the merits of how the PDC is run elsewhere, but safe to say I'm not a fan). I don't see how or why other agencies would have to forego their assessments- I think you've used some circular logic to make your point. The city of SF did not forego $15 million in tax revenue to provide TIF for PacBell park- it's an additional tax on the property in addition to the other taxes that have to be paid.

It's not public dollars. It is additional public risk, though. But given that it was 5% of the project, it was a somewhat sensible deal.

Mikey,

You a NIMBY aren't you? You are arguing about something you have not researched at all.

Finnegan makes you look silly because he knows exactly what he's talking about. You don't even know that Merritt doesn't want a soccer *only* stadium. He wants a soccer *specific* stadium. That means a rectangle field instead of a giant empty outfield that currently exists. PSU will continue to play football there as well as high schools when needed. You'd know that if you knew dick about this proposal.

So you don't want the city to modernize their stadium but there isn't a prayer a major league baseball team will ever play there, no prayer a pro football team will ever play there. If that doesn't happen you would be ok with the city selling it's downtown stadium so another developer can build condos downtown? Probably a corporate developer right?

You don't want a guy to drop $40 million of his own money to bring a team to PDX for the entire city to cheer for, you don't want the city to finance the project with bonds that won't cost the taxpayers a dime? You also assume Paulson is going to default on paying back the bonds. Where do you get that indication? He's paying back the loan previous owners took on PGE when they renovated it last time. He's proven to be trustworthy and there is no indication that the MLS would fail here considering the amount of support already for the USL Timbers. If you make any assumptions you would have to assume that Portland will be one of the best supported teams in MLS.

So thanks for trying Mikey. Please come back again when you don't look like a Paultard that just hates himself some taxes (even when you won't be taxed for anything nimrod).

damn. i forget all about this and take a nap, and i come back to see that finn and garrett have pretty much everything i was too lazy to type out the first time. well, except for one thing.

the problem with finding investors is that it won't stop them from asking the city and the state for help. look at paul allen. he owns the blazers, the seahawks, and another team(who will go unmentioned for obvious reasons). has he always ponied up every cent?

Well duh, Mikey, of course he wants to lessen his financial risk. He's a businessman, not a charity.

If it is such a bad deal for the city, why are they pursuing it?

I'll tell you why. It's those "indirect benefits" you don't want to hear about.

I ask you this: Is the city here to make a profit or to better the community?

It seems like you think it is the former, but maybe that's not surprising since you don't think those "indirect benefits" have any value.

You're wrong about that.

However, you may be right and this may fail, but I don't think it will, and obviously neither does the city.

"Mikey and the Haters" (like the sound of that, good band name) still haven't explained why Merritt Paulson would invest $45 million into a property he would have no financial stake in.

Let's explore Mikey's logic a little further. Let's say that the Timbers are wildly successful - he wants Merritt to share that success with the city. It is a simple fact that he is already sharing that success through taxes on tickets, concession, parking etc. When the MLS timbers come to town and do even better and sells even more tickets the city gets more revenue. So he IS sharing in that success. Facts are inconvenient things. Just like Merritt has no interest in allowing the public to own part of his business the City of Portland does not have an interest in allowing Merritt to own some of their valuable property. Merritt needs to invest his money in buying an expansion franchise to the tune of $40 Million and the City needs to invest their money into the property they own in order to raise the value of said property.

It is clear Mikey can't get over the Paulson name. His head would probably explode if he actually looked up Merritt and his contributions. He is a confirmed enviro who gives generously to organizations like the Sierra Club and OLCV. But it is easier to make him a boogey man Bush stoogie out to rape and pillage the denizens of Portland.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that Miami's bid is complete bullshit.

Mikey and the Haters = shitty band name, or, rather, name of a shitty band....

Bottom line: if Mikey ran local government, he would've happily told Nike to feck off and move their headquarters to Chicago and OHSU to feck off when their only chance of staying in town was SW waterfront development.

No major stadium has ever been privately financed (SF coughed up far more than $15M for Pac Bell, FYI), just like many private deals are supplemented through financial public breaks, Paulson is paying $40M out of his own pocket to make money for both himself and the city in a stadium he doesn't even own, the average cost of a new MLS stadium is much more than the $85M the city would pay for a renovated PGE Park and new AAA baseball field, and bonds based on future revenues are relatively low risk and wouldn't divert a single penny from the general fund for roads, schools, etc. Sure, it could always go pear-shaped, as any business transaction could, and taxpayers could be on the hook for the future bonds, but weighing the pros and cons, it's overall a good deal. Paulson isn't trying to rape the public, he's trying to strike a fair deal for his private business team playing in a public stadium that will bring bigger future financial benefits for both.

Let's hope the local politicos are a little more rational and forward-thinking than Mikey, who would prefer that Portland's business environment still be a lot more like, say, Roseburg or Centralia based on his attitude.

Thankful to see the opposite side of the coin here. You just don't hear the pro-MLS side in detail in a forum like this. I am a little concerned about the potential for the MLS folding a few years after this deal gets ironed out. It should be popular, all things considered but will it? In Portland and beyond?

One question though - living wage jobs? Selling peanuts and beer? Cutting the grass? Usher? Those are minimum wage jobs. Example please.

You won't find the pro-MLS side in detail in any other forum either.

By the time this scam is played out the final bill to Portland is going to be at least twice what they are asking for now.

It is surprising how closely this deal matches how Dubya got his start ripping off taxpayers. Read the story "How George W. Bush Scored Big With the Texas Rangers":

http://www.angelfire.com/ok5/pearly/htmls/…

Portland will be funneling hundreds of millions of dollars into this scam to hopefully create a few jobs working concessions counters and doing janitorial work.

Meritt Paulson, his dad, and his buddy dubya are calling Portland sucker city these days. From all the shilling for them, it sounds like they are right.

miz, if you're referring to articles from a pro-mls viewpoint, you're right. there hasn't been a whole lot. but if you mean just people talking about positive aspects of bringing an mls club to portland, then i highly recommend you check out mls2pdx. or just come on over to the timbers board. you'll find nothing but pro-mls talk.

as for the mls folding, if you mean the league, i couldn't tell you. but a club in portland would do quite well. the average attendance at an mls match in 2008 was 16,251. with the lowest average attendance being 10,673 in kansas city. the timbers average attendance for 2008 was 8,567. and that's for a second tier league. while shittle, who is starting in mls next season, only averaged 3,386 for 2008. the highest attending match(attendance: 10,184) was against the timbers.

and smiley, this whole "the sins of the fathers shall be visited upon the sons" bullshit is getting tiresome. to say that merritt paulson is simply trying to scam the city of portland and it's fine citizens is as arrogant as it is unfounded. to date, he has been the best club owner this team has ever seen. he has done so much, not just for this team, but for the fans as well. but i'm sure you knew that. being as well informed as you are.

Smiley you nitwit...

Go to a game at PGE or the Rose Garden. You'll see the concessions being worked by people who are volunteering their time to make money for a church or other charity. They're not making money for themselves but you wouldn't know that would you? Nobody isn't trying to scam anyone here. There isn't a single dollar coming from the general fund.

Merritt Paulson is not his father Smiley. Deal with it.

Oh, and say hi to your mother for me.

"If Paulson wants to improve the facility, he should invest in it himself."

Mikey do you rent a house or apartment (or did you ever)?

Did you spend a ton of money on improving the place like replacing cabinets, countertops, windows, maybe the siding, and stuff like that. That is what you are asking Paulson to do.

So, you all think that it would be a good decision for the City of Portland to subsidize a Delaware corporation? The Timbers and the Beavers are operated through a Delaware corporation, not an Oregon corporation. Nice commitment to the city there. Where does the team pay taxes?

FYI, I run a very successful, OREGON-based business. Yes, I could incorporate in Delaware, but I'd rather contribute to the local community and be a part of the city I live in and love, even if it means paying higher taxes and dealing with the ridiculous Portland business taxation system, which is particularly crippling for smaller businesses like mine.

If Paulson wants to talk public financing, step 1 would be for him to incorporate his business in Portland, Oregon. I won't even begin to defend Portland's business taxation policies- they hurt my ability to do business- but that is a cost of living and working and employing people in Portland.

Incorporating in Oregon would be a sign that Paulson is putting the community first. Until then, his request for a bailout is an effort to take Portlander's money and move it outside of Oregon. You talk about $85 million in indirect benefits. Well, "a bird in the hand is worth $85 million in the Bush." Or, for the metaphorically-challenged, $85 million of Portland money available for Portland services is worth far more than $85 million handed to a Delaware corporation.

And yes, Garrett, I have rented a house before (I own one now), and I have invested money in making the place a better place to live, even when I didn't get a rent break. Have you? Or do you just choose to live in squalor until someone else pays for what you want?

Not a single person here has yet explained why private financers aren't lining up. Not a single person here has suggested that Merritt share revenue or ownership with the city in exchange for his financing package.

If the giveaway is such a good idea, why aren't any of you lining up to get the loans and give Merritt the money?

Well?

-Mikey

how do you feel about the trailblazers mikey?

Garrett~

I've already been to games at PGE park, thanks to the many free tickets they hand out to inflate attendance. Strike one there.

So the concessions workers are volunteers? Those aren't paying jobs? That's quite the deal for any business owner looking for a free ride. Thanks for the under hand pitch. Strike two for not even creating the low paying jobs.

And you say that not a single dollar is coming from the general fund? Sure, because they are taking it directly from local taxpayers via taxes on hotels and rental cars. While Merritt Paulson claimed that he is paying off the existing PGE Park renovation bond himself, actually he falsely claimed that he had already payed it off, he actually receives $2 million dollars per year from Portland taxpayers to pay most of the $3 million dollar annual bond payment. His new plan states that he must continue to receive that same subsidy from Portland taxpayers. Strike three for the false claim that he pays his own bills without tax subsidies from Portlanders when the reality is that two thirds of his revenue is tax subsidies.


Oh, and my mother is dead. Go say hi to her yourself asshole.

Steeplechase~

You know little or nothing about owning a business.

When your business moves into a building that you are renting or leasing, unless you want it exactly the way it is, you do pay for all the renovations.

Mikey, so you've put a new roof, and new cabinets and new floors throughout your apartment, for free? We are not talking about painting a room, but these are major upgrades, and great if you are so benovolent, but guarentee your landlord was laughing all the way to the bank.

Honestly, I get you hate capitalism and "corporate greed" but just because someone is asking the city to put up some money just like he is, doesn't mean he is trying rape the city. If you are that close-minded, its frankly sad, and your inability to understand how funding of public venues works is getting a bit maddening.

You asked why he isn't giving up control of the team to the city for the financing, and I can think of a few big ones. First, say everything goes to shit, just like you think will happen. What does that mean? The city of Portland would own a sports team. What expirience does the city have running a sports team? What are the chances the city could even find another buyers group or fund the team to keep it a going concern? I would argue that would be an even bigger screw-up and cost the city more in the long run. In fact...even though you want it, does anyone at the city? I bet even if they were offered it, the commissioners would turn it down and if they didn't, they would be just as short-sighted and out-of-touch as you are.

You asked why private financiers aren't lining up, and that is pretty easy to answer too. Looked at a newspaper lately? Even if the project was guarenteed to make money (which I personally think it is) and a bank could buy PGE from the city and pay for the upgrades (because again no logical business person is going to just pay for the upgrades with no ownership stake in the project...thats just not how business works and if you doubt me, try taking a business class) there is no bank/financier with the ability or the desire to lend. I work in finance and either they are not lending anything to anyone, or they are investing in crap that can get them much larger returns than this project could.

Finally, Smiley you asked about jobs. The jobs we are talking about are the construction jobs associated with the renovations and new stadium, and the jobs created because of those jobs. We are in an economic downturn which is not unlike the Great Depression...how did we get out of it before? Massive massive public spending putting alot of the country to work...and this is an idea in line with that thought process (I'll also conceed that WWII helped, but hey public works programs DO put people to work). Governments need to spend more in times of economic downturns, not less, and this is exactly the kind of project the city should be undertaking.

Secondly, you stated that Paulson is taking taxes from local taxpayers in the form of hotels and rental cars...how? Because those taxes aren't making it into the general fund? Cause I dunno about you, but I am not staying in hotels very often or renting a car...those taxes were never part of the general fund, and why should we assume that Oregonians are hurt by them? Having an MLS team would broaden Portland's national and international footprint, and will probably pull in more people from around the world. Hell just this year alone, I know of several HUNDRED Japanese fans that came over to see a Japanese player on the Timbers...playing in the MLS has the probability of generating even more tourism interest, and will end up leaving more tourist dollars in the Rose City than currently, which is a net benefit to Portlanders, not a net loss...

Smiley...just saw your latest comment, and I dunno where you heard that or if you just got screwed in a lease, but most of the time ALOT of the renovations are paid for...that is totally a common thing, leasing companies even put money away each month for that sort of thing...it helps get buildings rented faster...now stuff INSIDE the building, like counters, racks, etc are added by the business, but if you take that as a metaphor and apply it to PGE and Timbers, Paulson is providing that with the team and the other expenses he pays for via his rent (security, ushers, stuff for concessions, etc.)

Really??~

That you would use the non-words "alot" and "dunno" says a lot about you.

You don't know what you are talking about. Sorry to be blunt about it, but you very clearly don't have any experience in this. You don't need to try and fake it, because it isn't working. It is obvious that you do not know what you are talking about.

Here is a quick idea of what to expect when you rent or lease office space: the basic structure is hopefully maintained by the owner of the building, and they pay for that, but everything extra is paid by the tenant. It has paint on the exterior, electrical service and it doesn't leak. It may have carpet, whatever the last guy put in, or not. It may have a ceiling treatment, again whatever was there before, or not. Same with the lights, walls, bathroom, lunchroom. The building owner did not pay for those things, he left what was built by the prior tenant. The owner of the building is not going to put $100K or even $1K into something that may be out of business tomorrow. Standard practice is that you get a volume of space, relatively clean, and you can do what you want with it.

To quibble:

Is the seating structure of a stadium akin to its walls, floors and ceiling or is it akin to a sales counter, desk, computer network, etc?

Another way to look at it is this: could Paulson make the changes he wants to make without the city being involved at all? Does he have that much control over the facility?

He can buy new desks for the offices without needing city approval. Can he add 5,000 seats int eh outfield too?

Smiley,

Read what I said you nob. The concession workers volunteer to work there for an organization. The organization is then paid by the Timbers/Beavers/Blazers.

You claim you're some sort of expert at all of this yet you have consistently been doling out half-truths or flat out falsehoods. You're dismissed now. Please move to New Hampshire so you can live free and die.

Mikey- I rent a pretty nice apartment. It's not squalor. If it was shitty I'd move into something I thought was nicer but if the sink sucks I sure as hell will call my landlord and tell her first and give her every opportunity to keep me living there.

I obviously just don't understand your points. You don't see things like sports and having a nice place to watch them at as improving the quality of life in a city. Not a single dime of this is coming out of the general fund and will be repaid by Paulson. It sounds like a win-win to me. If it didn't sound like a win for the city would the mayor and commissioners be behind it? Oh yeah...I forgot...they're obviously trying to screw the city right?

I'll continue to leave the half truths to you Garrett.

You're the one who keeps saying Paulson isn't getting money from the general fund, but leaving out that he's getting $2 million dollars a year in tax subsidies.

An additional tax subsidy trick Paulson has in the works which his "audit" lists as essential is the slimy trick of having the the team help pay for the stadium themselves - instead of paying taxes. That one was called SB5 in the legislature a few years ago when they tried to get a major league baseball team in town. It is being resurrected now. Instead of players and employees of the team paying taxes that money instead will go straight to Paulson. It works out the same as a straight ahead tax subsidy. Paulson gets more profit, the players and team employees get the use of all the services of the state of Oregon free of charge.

Smiley,

You are spewing just complete unadulterated bullshit. As someone once said "You are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts".

Your description of SB5 is utterly and simply wrong.

Your points about hotel and car taxes are just odd and once again so off-base and factually incorrect it is not even worth my time to refute.

Simply put you don't know what you are talking about so please stop stating your own lies as facts.

I'm disappointed it's been about 20 comments since Mikey and Smiley last argued that Portland shouldn't do this because Merritt Paulson apparently has weekly knob-bobbing sessions with W. That sure was a winning argument.

Don't be a pest Finnegan~

"Your description of SB5 is utterly and simply wrong."

No

Here is the link to a description of that bill:

http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.php?opt…

"Financing Proposal Breakdown:

State Income Tax Revenue - $124-$150 million. All income taxes paid by baseball players and officials will be segregated and used to service $124 million in bonds. Oregon State, Senate Bill 5, which is passed into law allows for up $150 million to be collected toward the financing of a ballpark stadium in Portland, through construction bonds."

The audit on the MLS2PDX site references that funding, the NYTimes article references it, and the Talk Timbers message board linked in this Mercury post references it.


Regarding the hotel and rental car tax that you seem to be saying does not exist, don't want to take my word for it, refute the City of Portland by way of the Trib.

Here is the link and the quote:

http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.…

"Part of the money generated from a local hotel and rental car tax generates about $2 million a year for the debt payments.

And the current owner of the Beavers and Timbers now is paying about $1.1 million a year to provide the rest of the money needed for debt payments, said David Logsdon, spectator facilities manager for the city of Portland."

Smiley, ugh. I just don't know where to begin if Finnegan isn't getting through with his thoughtful and factual arguments. I will say this, TIs are negotiated between the landlord and the tenant. If you've never been in a position to do that, that means you're probably not a very big tenant. In cases with a large, established tenant, the landlord will foot the TIs in order to entice the tenant to locate in his or her building. For example, let's say The Cheesecake Factory wants to move into my building. TCF requires lofted ceilings and other "trademark" structural changes. I, as the landlord, may be willing to foot the bill for renovations in exchange for TCF signing a long-term lease. And since I would see that TCF is a successful business that, barring something catostrophic, will reliably be paying me rent and benefitting my building with increased foot-traffic and exposure, I would likely agree to footing the upfront renovation costs.

Smiley,

Have you ever ever been wrong...in your life?

Soccer sucks, except to young kids with orange wedges and moms with minivans. The city of Portland could find better uses of the stadium, one that people would actually attend and enjoy.

Corny, you need to go back and read the thread.

My response was to statements by Finnegan and Really?? that no business owner in his right mind would spend X amount of his own money on infrastructure improvements on a structure that he does not own, which is false.

This year I was involved in a $14 million build out of one building in a business park. The building owner did not pay for those modifications.

Garrett~

That's why I do fact checking. You should try it sometime.

Smiley you dumbass...sorry if my grammer doesn't appeal to you, I like to take short-cuts sometimes and hey I'm 23 and part of the texting generation and when I get pissed and talk fast my grammer goes to shite. Sorry. Anyway, as Corny stated, I am right...I never once stated that NO business owner would ever do anything to upgrade his space, but I did state that one should expect a landlord to pay for large upgrades, exactly as corny stated...

Sorry you are too small potatoes or got screwed on a lease, but as someone whose parents own a freaking property management business don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about...I think you need to look in the mirror there.

This is a MAJOR upgrade to the stadium, which would result in higher potential rents from the Timbers and PSU Football and any potential exhibition games (think U.S. Mens or Womens soccer team). It DRASTICALLY changes the rent that PGE can demand, and in the end, will be a benefit to the city. It makes ZERO sense for Paulson, with no ability to control the rent he pays, outside of a lease agreement and no owner in his right mind would put a long enough lease agreement in place locking in a rate for a period long enough to pay back his own upgrades and to be honest I doubt the city would want to agree to that long of a lease either as it prevents them from being able to adjust the rate if need be. Start making a coherent argument rather than just repeating the same crap over and over again even after its been shown you are wrong...it gets old!

Smiley,

I did do fact checking. I don't need to repeat what Finnegan spelled out for you in very explicit terms and you chose not to listen to or pretended it didn't exist or said it meant something it didn't mean at all.

All I can do at this point is call you names and I don't really think you're worth the fun.

you're right sepdxdad. the only people interested in soccer are children and said children's mothers. that's why it's the most popular sport in the world.

as for using the stadium for something that people would attend and enjoy, what did you have in mind? i highly doubt there's enough interest in professional football to bring a team here. even if there was, a new stadium would have to be built(either that or some SERIOUS renovations to pge would be needed). then you could sit and try and argue with mikey and smiley instead of us. we already have a basketball team. i don't think hockey would do too well in that stadium. maybe baseball? oh wait, we already have that. and people sure seem interested in it.

Okay I am doing this for others cause I can't let Smiley's characterizations stand...

He is somehow blaming Merritt Paulson for the fact he paid back-rent that he didn't even have to as it was incurred by previous tenants. On top of that Vera and the original PFE cut a deal for the renovations to PGE in 1999 that was based on pretty faulty assumptions. The city realized they needed another source of revenue to satisfy their debt payments on the remodel bond. How is any of this Merritt Paulson's fault? And how on god's green earth is it as you characterized "he's getting $2 million dollars a year in tax subsidies" or "when the reality is that two thirds of his revenue is tax subsidies." What revenue? What are you talking about? Merritt pays $1.3 million a year in rent to use the stadium and the city uses another $2 million in hotel and car rental taxes to pay the loan on the original 1999 construction bond.

See what he did here folks? He is saying that Merritt is stealing $2 million from the taxpayers because the city has to use additional revenue to pay off their bond. Seriously faulty logic at work here.

Now let's take your characterization of SB5. "Instead of players and employees of the team paying taxes that money instead will go straight to Paulson. It works out the same as a straight ahead tax subsidy. Paulson gets more profit, the players and team employees get the use of all the services of the state of Oregon free of charge."

Where do I start....sigh. First, How does Paulson get more profit? How? The bill says the income tax on player salaries will be used to pay for stadium upgrades on a publicly owned facility. Secondly, yes SB5 as currently written would dedicate the income taxes from players salaries to help pay for the bond payments for stadium renovation and construction. What is wrong with that? Those players would not be in Oregon in the first place if it were not for the renovated stadium and a MLS team. So it is not like we are taking money away from anyone. Finally it is not clear that any Oregon income taxes would be paid by players at all as they are all technically employees of MLS and thus a revised SB5 would help capture at least some revenue.

Again. I get it, you hate the Paulsons and somehow conflate the son with the father and seem to think this is the same as the bailout. I would hazard to say that the overwhelmingly majority of mls to pdx fans are no fans of Bush or Papa Paulson. We can separate them from Merrit. Can you?

The city does not own the old debt. Merritt Paulson owns the debt because he bought the company that owned the debt.

The players and employees of the team employed in Oregon should not pay state taxes because they would not be in Oregon in the first place if it were not for the renovated stadium? If that were a valid argument then everyone else working in Oregon would be using it.


To sum up, we are loaning him money to develop his business and then giving him money to pay us back.

Hopefully the public subsidy ends there.

Smiley,

You clearly don't understand how this works. Merritt had 0 responsibility to pay that debt back. He didn't have to buy the team with that debt because the city wouldn't have bought the Beavs/Timbers and continue to operate them so they could have a tenant to pay anything for that stadium. Any tenant is better than no tenant.

In your words, to sum it up, we are loaning him money to bring in a much bigger business with far more potential for growth to provide our city with more amenities (i.e. another pro team and a fix to an old historical stadium) and sell out an old half empty stadium.

But you did say it best. It is a loan...one that Merritt has pledged to pay back. We have no reason to think he won't considering his past actions.

INTERNET RAGE!