This Week in the Mercury
Tuesday, February 24, 2009
News / Politics Major League Soccer Hearing
Posted by Matt Davis on Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 4:59 PM
Randy Leonard's Major League Soccer task force is taking public comment this afternoon. The room is packed with Timbers fans, and unsurprisingly, the majority of them seem to think MLS for Portland is a good idea:
SIGNUP SHEETS: PRO ON THE LEFT, CON ON THE RIGHT...
If you want to testify, they're going to start taking public testimony at 6pm. So there's still time to come down to the Portland Building, 1120 SW 5th, and add your two cents.
Audience members here so far seem to think Leonard has a good chance of pushing the idea through council—"Adams is a yes, Saltzman is on the fence, Fish is on the fence, and it would take a knife to get Amanda Fritz to loosen the purse strings," said one observer, when questioned about council's perspectives on the issue. "But Leonard only needs three votes, and he's got two. Four would be ideal."
Whether these observers have the faintest idea what they're talking about, I can't say. But their perceptions on the viability of major league soccer as a council proposition certainly run counter to this reporter's impressions, having spoken with council members and their staffers about this issue over the past few weeks.
Most here think council could be persuaded to go for the deal if Merritt Paulson, who is pushing the bargain, would agree to underwrite the bonds used to pay for the stadium, in case they fail. They also seem convinced that $85m for two stadiums (one for soccer, another for baseball) is a civic bargain—Vancouver BC just put over $300m into an MLS deal, they say. And they're convinced that the MLS predictions, that the attendance at MLS games would rise more than 80% over current attendance at Timbers games, is realistic.
Meanwhile, council still seems skeptical—there'll be a council vote on the issue on March 11.
"$85m is too much for us to pay to elevate our soccer team by one division," says Nick Fish.
Oregonian film critic Shawn Levy has been among those testifying at the hearing in favor of the deal. He held up a Timbers army scarf, and said the community of Timbers Army supporters is "representative of our city." Soccer City USA, he said, is part of Portland's "international identity." "It's been written about in glossy magazines, it's been on the BBC. There's a tremendous thirst for major league soccer in this city."
LEVY: "Rose City 'til I die..." [Merritt Paulson and consultant, former mayor Vera Katz, in background at right]
Other voices in support of the plan have stressed the perceived opportunities: World cup qualifying games, attracting more supporters from across Oregon, the Timbers' strong fan base, competing with Seattle, and "boosting the local economy." Some have pushed the task force to push Paulson's firm to guarantee union jobs in the stadium, too—Paulson doesn't look too enthusiastic...
John Mulvey has been one of five critics of the plan. "When you began this task force you said you would only support major league soccer if the deal pencils out," he said. "But right now, there have been some very optimistic projections, and there's still a funding gap of $40m. I am baffled at how 17 members of this task force, knowing these facts, can conclude that this proposal 'pencils out'."
"It's all going to depend on the numbers," says Commissioner Leonard. "And we're getting closer to understanding what both parties' bottom lines are. "It's going to be incumbent on us, and us being both Merritt and the city, to work really hard if we can get that nailed down. We don't have the time that we would usually have to get this deal finalized."
Leonard says he supports union jobs as part of the deal, and adds that he was pleased to hear the "passion" amongst the supporters this afternoon. "I was actually here to ask, you know, where are the faults in this?" he says. "But I seem to have missed out on the passion part, and it's inspired me to work even harder to make this happen."
1
It's strange that the realization that our city is in a fiscal crisis and must slash budget on the one hand, doesn't seem to inform the decision to borrow a bunch of money for non-essential projects on the other hand.
2
"But their perceptions on the viability of major league soccer as a council proposition certainly run counter to this reporter's impressions, having spoken with council members and their staffers about this issue over the past few weeks."
Either quote them, or don't say anything.
Either quote them, or don't say anything.
3
"If Paulson's backing it, he has money to burn, there's no way that the Portland city council can turn it down," said one supporter.
"We're faced with a choice," says Jeremy Wright, of MLS for PDX—another supporter, who believes the deal has a strong chance of succeeding. "Do we move forward as a city, or do we go back into our shells?"
"We're faced with a choice," says Jeremy Wright, of MLS for PDX—another supporter, who believes the deal has a strong chance of succeeding. "Do we move forward as a city, or do we go back into our shells?"
4
Matt, what most people are ignoring here (supporters included) is that the USL is on very shaky ground, losing teams every year to the MLS (Toronto, Seattle, possibly Portland and Vancouver in 2011) and to bankruptcy (Edmonton, Calgary, Virginia Beach, California, and possibly now Miami FC before this season). The jump to MLS might be the proverbial jump from from an ice floe to dry land. If we don't join the MLS there may not be a league at any level for the Timbers to continue playing in within 2-3 years.
5
Soccer sucks, not enough people care to make it profitable in the long run, and there is no reason some rich guy should get welfare from Portland taxpayers. Get real.
6
"...one observer, when questioned about council's perspectives on the issue...": yes and that one "observer' seems to have a firmer grip on political realities than Matt Davis could ever imagine.
Davis, congratulations on finding a source who knows his ass from a hole in the ground.
Davis, congratulations on finding a source who knows his ass from a hole in the ground.
7
In Mark Evans' own words on the Timbers Army message board:
"If MLS to PDX were put to a public vote it would fail, hugely. Happily, we don't need a public vote..."
"If MLS to PDX were put to a public vote it would fail, hugely. Happily, we don't need a public vote..."
9
Congratulations, Smiley, you've again exceeded our expectations with another half-assed piece of internet searching.
this is what you were quoting:
http://www.soccercityusa.com/cgi-bin/yabb/…
that's not me. It's a user named MarkMCF, and you didn't even attempt to verify the identity of the poster, you just saw the name MARK and abracadabra, used the same skills of deduction that have left you on the losing end of every argument you start. You even took the quote out of context, which isn't fair to MarkMCF.
I post on the Timbers Message board, and I am plainly identified as the Mercury Blogger, but you didn't bother to look that far.
I'm all for discussions of the merits and drawbacks of this proposal in this and every forum, but your hackery continues to set a new low. I'd keep going, but I'm wasting a perfectly nice day stooping to your level.
Next time you want to quote me, don't run and find some other guy named Mark, make sure it comes directly from my mouth.
good day to you sir.
this is what you were quoting:
http://www.soccercityusa.com/cgi-bin/yabb/…
that's not me. It's a user named MarkMCF, and you didn't even attempt to verify the identity of the poster, you just saw the name MARK and abracadabra, used the same skills of deduction that have left you on the losing end of every argument you start. You even took the quote out of context, which isn't fair to MarkMCF.
I post on the Timbers Message board, and I am plainly identified as the Mercury Blogger, but you didn't bother to look that far.
I'm all for discussions of the merits and drawbacks of this proposal in this and every forum, but your hackery continues to set a new low. I'd keep going, but I'm wasting a perfectly nice day stooping to your level.
Next time you want to quote me, don't run and find some other guy named Mark, make sure it comes directly from my mouth.
good day to you sir.
10
The comment is still true. I was just quoting the facts in yesterday. The Timbers Army crew were making the personal attacks.
11
For once, I'm with Blabby, and just this once. Fuck Major League Soccer, whatever that is. We're broke.
14
I fail to see why this is a bad idea. We can all ignore the fact that the last time we had an economic crisis of this level Hoover thought that govt. shouldn't spend and it took us even deeper into the hole. It took FDR spending money and putting the govt. into debt to dig our country out and he was building stupid things...like parks, the Federal Art Project, and that whole pesky Public Works Administration that spend $3.3 billion of Federal money on construction to put people to work and stabilize purchasing power.
This is a civic project where the funds are available, the plan is good, and everything pencils out. It's $85 million that will be spent here in Portland on two construction projects that will put people to work in a very difficult time and will permanently create 300 jobs through Shortstop LLC at $45K+. There will also be some service level jobs created at the stadium and probably union service jobs judging by the comments made.
26 people spoke as for the deal. 5 people spoke against. Of those 5 people who spoke against 1 thought this was a deal to tear down Memorial Coliseum spearheaded by Paul Allen. Another veteran thought it was a deal to tear down the Coliseum or turn it into a big box store. One was a lady who wasn't really against the idea she just wanted there to be fair wage jobs and two people spoke against the stadium and made cohesive arguments.
Mulvey was using his own speculation to come up with numbers and the other guy was some guy arguing about the morals of spending money on something associated with leisure. He was also wearing perhaps the worst orange and yellow plaid jacket in the history of mankind and had a stupid parted down the middle long hair cut that I thought everyone got rid of in the 1970s.
Oh, and I like how Smiley just got used by Mark and just goes and says it doesn't matter cause he's right and Mark is wrong. Good one Smiley. You really showed Mark.
More...
This is a civic project where the funds are available, the plan is good, and everything pencils out. It's $85 million that will be spent here in Portland on two construction projects that will put people to work in a very difficult time and will permanently create 300 jobs through Shortstop LLC at $45K+. There will also be some service level jobs created at the stadium and probably union service jobs judging by the comments made.
26 people spoke as for the deal. 5 people spoke against. Of those 5 people who spoke against 1 thought this was a deal to tear down Memorial Coliseum spearheaded by Paul Allen. Another veteran thought it was a deal to tear down the Coliseum or turn it into a big box store. One was a lady who wasn't really against the idea she just wanted there to be fair wage jobs and two people spoke against the stadium and made cohesive arguments.
Mulvey was using his own speculation to come up with numbers and the other guy was some guy arguing about the morals of spending money on something associated with leisure. He was also wearing perhaps the worst orange and yellow plaid jacket in the history of mankind and had a stupid parted down the middle long hair cut that I thought everyone got rid of in the 1970s.
Oh, and I like how Smiley just got used by Mark and just goes and says it doesn't matter cause he's right and Mark is wrong. Good one Smiley. You really showed Mark.
15
Your selection of wich of Fish's words to quote is - no pun intended - questionable. Here's what you quoted in order to paint Fish as a definite "no" vote:
"Making an $85 million investment to move the Timbers up one division is a non-starter for me," Fish said.
Here's the full passage:
"Making an $85 million investment to move the Timbers up one division is a non-starter for me," Fish said. "In any deal I might support, the taxpayers are held harmless."
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.s…
Why leave out the second sentence? Why mislead us? Especially damning of your journalism is that Paulson has offered to personally guarantee the bonds, meaning the protection Fish mentions (in the sentence you omitted) for a bid he might consider is actually in place.
In other words: "Oh Snap! You just got served"
"Making an $85 million investment to move the Timbers up one division is a non-starter for me," Fish said.
Here's the full passage:
"Making an $85 million investment to move the Timbers up one division is a non-starter for me," Fish said. "In any deal I might support, the taxpayers are held harmless."
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.s…
Why leave out the second sentence? Why mislead us? Especially damning of your journalism is that Paulson has offered to personally guarantee the bonds, meaning the protection Fish mentions (in the sentence you omitted) for a bid he might consider is actually in place.
In other words: "Oh Snap! You just got served"
16
Your selection of wich of Fish's words to quote is - no pun intended - questionable. Here's what you quoted in order to paint Fish as a definite "no" vote:
"Making an $85 million investment to move the Timbers up one division is a non-starter for me," Fish said.
Here's the full passage:
"Making an $85 million investment to move the Timbers up one division is a non-starter for me," Fish said. "In any deal I might support, the taxpayers are held harmless."
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.s…
Why leave out the second sentence? Why mislead us? Especially damning of your journalism is that Paulson has offered to personally guarantee the bonds, meaning the protection Fish mentions (in the sentence you omitted) for a bid he might consider is actually in place.
In other words: "Oh Snap! You just got served"
"Making an $85 million investment to move the Timbers up one division is a non-starter for me," Fish said.
Here's the full passage:
"Making an $85 million investment to move the Timbers up one division is a non-starter for me," Fish said. "In any deal I might support, the taxpayers are held harmless."
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.s…
Why leave out the second sentence? Why mislead us? Especially damning of your journalism is that Paulson has offered to personally guarantee the bonds, meaning the protection Fish mentions (in the sentence you omitted) for a bid he might consider is actually in place.
In other words: "Oh Snap! You just got served"
17
Your selection of wich of Fish's words to quote is - no pun intended - questionable. Here's what you quoted in order to paint Fish as a definite "no" vote:
"Making an $85 million investment to move the Timbers up one division is a non-starter for me," Fish said.
Here's the full passage:
"Making an $85 million investment to move the Timbers up one division is a non-starter for me," Fish said. "In any deal I might support, the taxpayers are held harmless."
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.s…
Why leave out the second sentence? Why mislead us? Especially damning of your journalism is that Paulson has offered to personally guarantee the bonds, meaning the protection Fish mentions (in the sentence you omitted) for a bid he might consider is actually in place.
In other words: "Oh Snap! You just got served"
"Making an $85 million investment to move the Timbers up one division is a non-starter for me," Fish said.
Here's the full passage:
"Making an $85 million investment to move the Timbers up one division is a non-starter for me," Fish said. "In any deal I might support, the taxpayers are held harmless."
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.s…
Why leave out the second sentence? Why mislead us? Especially damning of your journalism is that Paulson has offered to personally guarantee the bonds, meaning the protection Fish mentions (in the sentence you omitted) for a bid he might consider is actually in place.
In other words: "Oh Snap! You just got served"
18
Smiley, you're defending quoting "Mark Evans" when the quote wasn't even from Mark Evans? Huh?
In Smiley's own words: "Portland Timbers here we go!"
And for those worried the city will be at all responsible to cover the bonds in the unlikely event the league or team goes teets up, the deal is being structured to ensure that Paulson personally takes on that risk. From today's Big O:
Usually, city bonds are backed by the general fund, which pays for services such as police and fire protection. City leaders have balked at risking general fund money and have been pushing Paulson to take the risk.
"The way we are structuring this, we will be totally insulating the taxpayer," Paulson said. "No matter how the teams are doing, I'm personally guaranteeing that our family is on the hook for those payments."
In Smiley's own words: "Portland Timbers here we go!"
And for those worried the city will be at all responsible to cover the bonds in the unlikely event the league or team goes teets up, the deal is being structured to ensure that Paulson personally takes on that risk. From today's Big O:
Usually, city bonds are backed by the general fund, which pays for services such as police and fire protection. City leaders have balked at risking general fund money and have been pushing Paulson to take the risk.
"The way we are structuring this, we will be totally insulating the taxpayer," Paulson said. "No matter how the teams are doing, I'm personally guaranteeing that our family is on the hook for those payments."
19
And Merritt is guaranteeing his family is on the hook for the payments...so now that he's backing the bonds what's anyone's problem?
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/i…
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/i…
20
$85 million to watch some guys run back and forth for what seems like an eternity and if you're lucky, maybe score a goal or two? Soccer suffers from too little offense. The hooliganism is fun though.
Do the Timbers games sell out regularly? If so, you might have a shot. If not, this is simply nuts. Either way, this is a private enterprise. If they can't finance their own expansion, then they aren't worth it.
Do the Timbers games sell out regularly? If so, you might have a shot. If not, this is simply nuts. Either way, this is a private enterprise. If they can't finance their own expansion, then they aren't worth it.
22
Public works projects can be very good, but that alone doesn't justify the expense. When we build a bridge, there is a real and lasting public benefit. When we build another arena, is there? Does PGE park fill to the brim during Timbers games? Do people get turned away? If you build it, will they come?
Personally, I'd rather see the money spent on road improvements. We always have UP soccer.
Personally, I'd rather see the money spent on road improvements. We always have UP soccer.
23
But they're not taking a single existing dollar. They're selling bonds, backed by anticipated income at the stadia and personally guaranteed by the teams' owners. Not a dime of pre-existing tax dollars is being used, the general fund is out of the equation entirely. If there's something you want the city to fund, ask them to. The funding for this deal has nothing to do with the existing city coffers.
24
Did you guys miss The Oregonian article that I posted above where Merritt Paulson PERSONALLY GUARANTEES ALL THE MONEY WILL BE PAID BACK AT NO RISK TO TAXPAYERS.
Jebus you guys. What does it take with you?
The pothole defense is really stupid. There isn't a city in this country lacking in potholes and it's brought up every single time someone wants to spend a city dollar on something they don't understand or disagrees with. You could be funding a free kids clinic and some jerkoff would come out and use the pothole defense to say why there shouldn't be a free kids clinic.
Jebus you guys. What does it take with you?
The pothole defense is really stupid. There isn't a city in this country lacking in potholes and it's brought up every single time someone wants to spend a city dollar on something they don't understand or disagrees with. You could be funding a free kids clinic and some jerkoff would come out and use the pothole defense to say why there shouldn't be a free kids clinic.
25
Flawless logic on display in here.
"Have the Timbers won the World Cup yet? No? Then this deal doesn't make sense."
How about this. I don't have kids. Because I hate kids. Specifically your kids.
"Has your child won a Rhodes Scholarship yet? No? Then it doesn't make sense for my taxes to fund schools for your children."
See how flawless?
PORTLAND TIMBERS, HERE WE GO
*boom boom*
"Have the Timbers won the World Cup yet? No? Then this deal doesn't make sense."
How about this. I don't have kids. Because I hate kids. Specifically your kids.
"Has your child won a Rhodes Scholarship yet? No? Then it doesn't make sense for my taxes to fund schools for your children."
See how flawless?
PORTLAND TIMBERS, HERE WE GO
*boom boom*
27
For clarification @ Aces: I was quoting Fish in conversation with me, not his phrasing in the Oregonian. It's not my practice to lift politicians' quotes from other news outlets without attribution.
28
Interesting that the strongest argument so far on here against the proposal is "I don't like soccer". If that's the best you can do, give up.
Personally, I hate baseball. So let's kick the Beavers out on their ass, not build them another stadium, and just renovate PGE park for football / 'soccer'. Save millions of dollars that way. The Timbers get far more fans than the Beavers anyway. And 'soccer' has a worldwide profile, baseball (even major league) doesn't.
Personally, I hate baseball. So let's kick the Beavers out on their ass, not build them another stadium, and just renovate PGE park for football / 'soccer'. Save millions of dollars that way. The Timbers get far more fans than the Beavers anyway. And 'soccer' has a worldwide profile, baseball (even major league) doesn't.
29
The queen of Blogtown endorsed me! I'm going to screen shot that and put it up in my cube for all my coworkers to be envious about.
30
While I don't claim to know all the details about the proposal, I don't believe anyone who says "no risk, guaranteed." If there is no risk to the public at all, then why is the public needed to back the bonds? Why not just put it out on the market to pay for it? Who would pass up a "sure thing" return?
Red Herring: "Interesting that the strongest argument so far on here against the proposal is "I don't like soccer"." I don't think that is the strongest argument against the proposal ... but ultimately it does kind of boil down to how many people in the community believe that.
Red Herring: "Interesting that the strongest argument so far on here against the proposal is "I don't like soccer"." I don't think that is the strongest argument against the proposal ... but ultimately it does kind of boil down to how many people in the community believe that.
31
The public owns the stadium. The city is the Timbers/Beavers landlord. Do you know of any renters who voluntarily improve their landlords' property and then agree to pay higher rent because the property is now nicer?
Any capital development of the stadium is an obligation of the public. The Timbers/Beavers aren't even allowed to reconfigure security railings in the stands without the city's involvement. But the management group which is advocating for the stadium upgrade is confident enough in its revenue projections that it is willing to guarantee the bonds.
That make sense?
Any capital development of the stadium is an obligation of the public. The Timbers/Beavers aren't even allowed to reconfigure security railings in the stands without the city's involvement. But the management group which is advocating for the stadium upgrade is confident enough in its revenue projections that it is willing to guarantee the bonds.
That make sense?
32
Enough people saying "I don't like soccer" is a pretty good reason to not to build a fucking soccer stadium!
Combine the generally ambivalent attitude that most Americans have towards soccer with a bad economy and the outrageous price-gouging every other pro sport delivers (via ticket and refreshment prices), and this seems like the wrong idea at the wrong time.
It's only the "right" time for the people who stand to profit-- i.e., not the taxpayers.
Combine the generally ambivalent attitude that most Americans have towards soccer with a bad economy and the outrageous price-gouging every other pro sport delivers (via ticket and refreshment prices), and this seems like the wrong idea at the wrong time.
It's only the "right" time for the people who stand to profit-- i.e., not the taxpayers.
33
Interesting point, zag. Counterpoint:
LET PUALSON'S DADDY PAY FOR IT HE'S LOADED WE SHOULD BE FILLING POTHOLES INSTEAD OF GIVING BILLIONARES NEW TOYS TO PLAY WITH.
Ball's in your court, bud.
LET PUALSON'S DADDY PAY FOR IT HE'S LOADED WE SHOULD BE FILLING POTHOLES INSTEAD OF GIVING BILLIONARES NEW TOYS TO PLAY WITH.
Ball's in your court, bud.
34
Is Vera Katz registered as a lobbyist with city hall, or is she simply the person to see when one wishes to bypass those pesky reporting requirements?
35
@Chunty
"Enough people saying "I don't like soccer" is a pretty good reason to not to build"
Not really because there are enough people who do like soccer that a team here would be supported regardless of your view.
"outrageous price-gouging every other pro sport delivers (via ticket and refreshment prices)"
Do you even know what a ticket to an MLS game costs? No, really, do you even have the slightest idea? If you had bothered to just look before you typed something you might have a clue.
Where were you last night when they had this hearing? I was there at the Portland building. You were probably at home looking at porn and too busy commenting on other blogs to come down and say your peace in front of the task force huh?
"Enough people saying "I don't like soccer" is a pretty good reason to not to build"
Not really because there are enough people who do like soccer that a team here would be supported regardless of your view.
"outrageous price-gouging every other pro sport delivers (via ticket and refreshment prices)"
Do you even know what a ticket to an MLS game costs? No, really, do you even have the slightest idea? If you had bothered to just look before you typed something you might have a clue.
Where were you last night when they had this hearing? I was there at the Portland building. You were probably at home looking at porn and too busy commenting on other blogs to come down and say your peace in front of the task force huh?
37
Hey now let's not denigrate the looking at of porn. It's got nothing to do with one's character and I for one won't stand for this kind of slander!
So anyway, speaking of MLS ticket prices, someone at the hearing last night (yeah really where were all you naysayers? of the 6 who signed up to speak against, 3 were crazy old men talking about Memorial Colosseum, 2 were there to speak on behalf of a living wage for stadium workers, and 1 was an old lady who only signed up on the anti list so she could leave early) mentioned that reigning MLS Champion Columbus Crew are offering 2009 season tickets (18 games) for something like $210.
So anyway, speaking of MLS ticket prices, someone at the hearing last night (yeah really where were all you naysayers? of the 6 who signed up to speak against, 3 were crazy old men talking about Memorial Colosseum, 2 were there to speak on behalf of a living wage for stadium workers, and 1 was an old lady who only signed up on the anti list so she could leave early) mentioned that reigning MLS Champion Columbus Crew are offering 2009 season tickets (18 games) for something like $210.
38
missed talking point #34: the City is doing a fabulous job of negotiating. 6 months ago Paulson wanted a much different deal than the one he's willing to sign today. He wants to get this done and he's taking what the city is offering him.
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