This Week in the Mercury
Monday, December 21, 2009
Transportation Who Wants Transit? We Want Transit!
Posted by Sarah Mirk on Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:31 AM
The city wrapped up the most intense part of its Portland Plan public outreach blitz last week, collecting survey data from an estimated 1,000 Portlanders during seven workshops over the last month. You can read all about the workshops on the city's slick website (or my take here).
What jumps out at me from the buttloads of data collected is the city-wide response to one question about transportation priorities. Asked what the city's top priority should be for its transportation budget, roughly 30 percent of Portlanders named improving mass transit. That's huge! More people identified mass transit as the top priority for the city than maintaining current streets (which clocked in at about 22 percent). Also, Bike/ped projects scored way higher than their current funding level, with 18 percent of Portlanders saying bike projects should be the city's #1 transportation priority.
Also interesting: check out how few people said freight should be the top priority. It's a measly two percent. That's ironic, seeing as the largest transportation project in our region right now is the Columbia River Crossing, a $3.6 billion bridge being strongly sold as a necessary project because it improves freight travel. This is just one of a hundred ways to say "We Don't Want It!"
Anyway, check out the breakdown by neighborhood:
- Old Town
- Wilson High (SW Portland)
- Mt. Scott (SE Portland)
- World Trade Center (business, downtown)
- St. Johns (North Portland)
- David Douglas High (East Portland)
- Beaumont (NE Portland)
All this data is just from the workshops, so it's preliminary. It doesn't include the 1,768 surveys filled out online or the two mail crates of surveys Portlanders have filled out and mailed in. You can still submit an online survey here.
1
Sarah, your... um... how shall we put this... "naivete" is breathtaking, but apparently no more so than the meat bags who showed up at these public meetings.
1,000 people equals 0.2% of the city's population. Note that in the much larger annual city survey, that condition of roads was one of the few categories that scored lower this time around than last time.
You bring a bunch of cranks and neighborhood activist types to some school cafeteria and your shocked that they don't prioritize freight? This asked what their TOP priority was. How many people did you expect to answer "freight"? And that means we shouldn't build a new bridge? I can't believe you people can vote.
1,000 people equals 0.2% of the city's population. Note that in the much larger annual city survey, that condition of roads was one of the few categories that scored lower this time around than last time.
You bring a bunch of cranks and neighborhood activist types to some school cafeteria and your shocked that they don't prioritize freight? This asked what their TOP priority was. How many people did you expect to answer "freight"? And that means we shouldn't build a new bridge? I can't believe you people can vote.
2
The average Portlander doesn't understand how much money is brought into the Portland area by "freight". I would estimate that the handling and movement of freight in the Portland area is the largest employer of people. I was involved with the local cartage of freight in Portland, and there is a "buttload" (to quote smirk) of people that make a living either producing goods to be moved as freight, or by actually moving it.
3
I just went and took this survey by the way, and it's crap. The questions are very leading and the answer choices they give you don't come close to cover the range of opinion. Weeeee-eak.
4
Blabby, there is also an online survey, which after seeing the results, I'm glad I took. Trains, buses and bikes!
Posted by ($8239f8h248cerfehjf23@&*@ebdjhb23f237OCDBO#BD*(#
on December 21, 2009 at 4:14 PM
· Report
5
That the city wants to increase funding for construction of mass transit at the same time it is cutting service indicates that the priority of the mayor and the city council is not in providing mass transit, the priority is on subsidizing developers.
6
Oregometry, what train, bus or bike did you take to the waterfall in your photo?
I hope you didn't drive there, because then you'd be a sinning gashole who will burn in hell! And probably a Republican to boot!
Why do you hate the polar bears, Oregometry? Why?
I hope you didn't drive there, because then you'd be a sinning gashole who will burn in hell! And probably a Republican to boot!
Why do you hate the polar bears, Oregometry? Why?
7
@ujfoyt: "I would estimate that the handling and movement of freight in the Portland area is the largest employer of people."
You would be wrong. The largest employer in this area is Government, followed by Healthcare, followed by retail trade (sales clerks) followed by "looking for work", followed by manufacturing, (the people that work IN the factories,) followed by food service, then administration, construction, professional technical services, etc...
Transportation&Warehousing is below "Other" and above Real estate. If you look at the "Trucking" breakout, (as opposed to the air transportation and warehousing sections,) there is enough capacity on the current I-5 bridge that all those people could all drive across the bridge more than once every hour, (assuming they wanted to, and they all worked the same shift,) if it wasn't for the commuters on it. They could drive across the river every 20 minutes if they used the I-205 bridge as well. With the CRC, the only way the bridge could jam up, (I mean, besides commuters,) is if they immediately got off the freeway at the end of the bridge, turned around, and got back on. And even then, the congestion problem wouldn't be on the bridge, but where they turned around.
You would be wrong. The largest employer in this area is Government, followed by Healthcare, followed by retail trade (sales clerks) followed by "looking for work", followed by manufacturing, (the people that work IN the factories,) followed by food service, then administration, construction, professional technical services, etc...
Transportation&Warehousing is below "Other" and above Real estate. If you look at the "Trucking" breakout, (as opposed to the air transportation and warehousing sections,) there is enough capacity on the current I-5 bridge that all those people could all drive across the bridge more than once every hour, (assuming they wanted to, and they all worked the same shift,) if it wasn't for the commuters on it. They could drive across the river every 20 minutes if they used the I-205 bridge as well. With the CRC, the only way the bridge could jam up, (I mean, besides commuters,) is if they immediately got off the freeway at the end of the bridge, turned around, and got back on. And even then, the congestion problem wouldn't be on the bridge, but where they turned around.
8
Ahhh, Matthew D speaks some truth. The main problem for freight would be in the Rose Quarter, but that's about it. Most freight moves when I-5 is as dead as a doornail, landing in NW Industrial, Oregon City, Swan Island, the MLK Corridor, Cully, Tigard and some out in Johnson Creek. It's spaced out well enough to circulate throughout the city without mobility issues.
The main mobility issue for freight in this area is that damned Vancouver yard, but it's being fixed.
The main mobility issue for freight in this area is that damned Vancouver yard, but it's being fixed.
9
I guess what I was trying to say and didn't make it clear enough is that everybody in Portland depends one way or another on the movement of freight in and out of Portland. Almost everything, in one way or another, is on some sort of freight conveyance at sometime in its' life. Usually several times before it is consumed. Your bicycle parts, your gas and oil, your food,well, just about everything. If the time involved in the distribution of freight escalates, so does the cost of the goods concerned. I don't understand why people don't understand this.
10
@ujfoyt: "everybody in Portland depends one way or another on the movement of freight"
By that standard, we also should spend $4.2B on other things we depend on, like wrapping paper, or better yet, ribbon. You know, most people in town are going to buy some of those in the next week, so they must be important. But what I was trying to say and wasn't making it clear enough is that you are trying to solve a problem of not enough ribbon, by putting a Fred Meyer in every other block. If the problem was a shortage of ribbon stores, why don't we build some ribbon stores, instead of building huge stores that just happen to carry a little bit of ribbon? In fact, it would be very easy to convert a few of the existing Fred Meyers into ribbon stores, just take the existing items out, put in the ribbon and put in some signs that say "Blue: Aisle 12" and the like.
Likewise, if the problem is really lack of freight capacity, why don't they put in a freight lane on I-5? It would cost a couple thousand for some signs, and sure the police would have to patrol it and catch the cheaters, but I bet they could make money at it after the tickets.
"your gas and oil... just about everything."
Actually, that stuff comes down a (privately owned) pipeline from Washington and has nothing to do with the city or roads, other than some markers that say "don't dig here" on the road near my house.
By that standard, we also should spend $4.2B on other things we depend on, like wrapping paper, or better yet, ribbon. You know, most people in town are going to buy some of those in the next week, so they must be important. But what I was trying to say and wasn't making it clear enough is that you are trying to solve a problem of not enough ribbon, by putting a Fred Meyer in every other block. If the problem was a shortage of ribbon stores, why don't we build some ribbon stores, instead of building huge stores that just happen to carry a little bit of ribbon? In fact, it would be very easy to convert a few of the existing Fred Meyers into ribbon stores, just take the existing items out, put in the ribbon and put in some signs that say "Blue: Aisle 12" and the like.
Likewise, if the problem is really lack of freight capacity, why don't they put in a freight lane on I-5? It would cost a couple thousand for some signs, and sure the police would have to patrol it and catch the cheaters, but I bet they could make money at it after the tickets.
"your gas and oil... just about everything."
Actually, that stuff comes down a (privately owned) pipeline from Washington and has nothing to do with the city or roads, other than some markers that say "don't dig here" on the road near my house.
11
"By that standard, we also should spend $4.2B on other things we depend on, like wrapping paper, or better yet, ribbon."
That's silly Matt.
"Actually, that stuff comes down a (privately owned) pipeline from Washington and has nothing to do with the city or roads"
It's delivered to every gas station by truck.
The point isn't that we need a wider bridge to accommodate more trucks. We need a wider bridge to avoid having 8 hours of commuter gridlock in the future, which the trucks will have to sit in.
That's silly Matt.
"Actually, that stuff comes down a (privately owned) pipeline from Washington and has nothing to do with the city or roads"
It's delivered to every gas station by truck.
The point isn't that we need a wider bridge to accommodate more trucks. We need a wider bridge to avoid having 8 hours of commuter gridlock in the future, which the trucks will have to sit in.
13
One of the biggest reasons freight isn't seen as a priority for the city is because the issues with freight concern the arterial roads - I5, I205, US26, Hwy 99 etc. Which aren't city roads.
Saying freight should be a priority for the city transportation budget is like saying that PDX airport security should be a top priority. It might be important, but it's got f all to do with the city.
Saying freight should be a priority for the city transportation budget is like saying that PDX airport security should be a top priority. It might be important, but it's got f all to do with the city.
14
Stu, there are (in the good times) literally hundreds of trucks every day hauling containers (as an example) in and out of the container yards and ports in Portland (and not so much in Vancouver) that are either going to local businesses or coming from the same. These loads are being moved on nearly every street in the Portland area, not on just the main thoroughfares. The more these trucks sit idling, the more these goods cost.
15
@blabby: Re: ribbon "That's silly Matt."
@ujfoyt: "there are (in the good times) literally hundreds of trucks every day"
Did you know that there are 1133 stores in Portland that stock ribbon right now? (I'm not making that up, that stat come from Google.) Ribbon is more important than trucking.
@ujfoyt: "The more these trucks sit idling, the more these goods cost."
Ribbon prices makes Christmas more expensive too. I estimate* that the city as a whole has reduced it's Christmas budget by 1% as a result of ribbon getting more expensive. And since most of that ribbon is made in China, it is money that is not being spent in the local economy.
Seriously: If the traffic speeds were halved in the metro area from what they are now, at most we'd need twice as many trucks and truck drivers**, which would result in inflation of around 0.5%, (obviously, not equally: Bottled water would rise a lot, software, not much at all.) However, just the CRC will result in inflation of around 0.5% from higher taxes. Given that the CRC will not result in doubling of traffic speeds (even at rush hour it will only increase speeds slightly in the bridge influence area, it will have a negative impact on congestion for the rest of the city, so the net result is very close to doing nothing,) the CRC is clearly a much worse investment than more drivers/trucks. The math on capital improvements to our roads in an effort to move freight just doesn't pencil out compared to the alternatives. It certainly may have at one point, (although looking at the Pan American highway: I think that point is somewhere between pulling the stumps out of the middle of the road and the first layer of asphalt, I'm unsure if drainage ditches on the side of the road are a good investment or not,) but it certainly doesn't today. Freight is the puppet argument people use today for why they want their suburban housing values to rise while making the urban areas pay more taxes.
*With the same accuracy as some of the other estimates around here.
**Truck drivers do other things than just sit in traffic. For instance, when I have freight delivered to my house, the guy has to call me and ask for directions, drive, then we have to figure out how we are going to unload it, sign the paperwork, and then I have to walk them though the turns to get them back out of the neighborhood. If traffic congestion doubled, the driving time would double, but the other times would stay constant. Likewise, some places would switch to night delivery if the daytime traffic congestion got too bad. The reason they don't do it now is that the shift differential pay for the drivers, (which is typically around 30% for graveyard, (with less for swing,) although it is more like 15% once you include the the cost of running the truck,) is more expensive than the the delays caused by traffic congestion. In other words, the actual cost of congestion to truck drivers is less than 15% right now, so if traffic congestion doubled, that would still be less than 30%, (and probably quite a bit less, a realistic number would be around 5%-10% more drivers if the traffic congestion doubled, with less than 5%-10% more trucks because some of them would be used for multiple shifts.) Therefor, the realist inflation from congestion doubling would be less than 0.05% which is below the margin of error in the CPI.
More...
@ujfoyt: "there are (in the good times) literally hundreds of trucks every day"
Did you know that there are 1133 stores in Portland that stock ribbon right now? (I'm not making that up, that stat come from Google.) Ribbon is more important than trucking.
@ujfoyt: "The more these trucks sit idling, the more these goods cost."
Ribbon prices makes Christmas more expensive too. I estimate* that the city as a whole has reduced it's Christmas budget by 1% as a result of ribbon getting more expensive. And since most of that ribbon is made in China, it is money that is not being spent in the local economy.
Seriously: If the traffic speeds were halved in the metro area from what they are now, at most we'd need twice as many trucks and truck drivers**, which would result in inflation of around 0.5%, (obviously, not equally: Bottled water would rise a lot, software, not much at all.) However, just the CRC will result in inflation of around 0.5% from higher taxes. Given that the CRC will not result in doubling of traffic speeds (even at rush hour it will only increase speeds slightly in the bridge influence area, it will have a negative impact on congestion for the rest of the city, so the net result is very close to doing nothing,) the CRC is clearly a much worse investment than more drivers/trucks. The math on capital improvements to our roads in an effort to move freight just doesn't pencil out compared to the alternatives. It certainly may have at one point, (although looking at the Pan American highway: I think that point is somewhere between pulling the stumps out of the middle of the road and the first layer of asphalt, I'm unsure if drainage ditches on the side of the road are a good investment or not,) but it certainly doesn't today. Freight is the puppet argument people use today for why they want their suburban housing values to rise while making the urban areas pay more taxes.
*With the same accuracy as some of the other estimates around here.
**Truck drivers do other things than just sit in traffic. For instance, when I have freight delivered to my house, the guy has to call me and ask for directions, drive, then we have to figure out how we are going to unload it, sign the paperwork, and then I have to walk them though the turns to get them back out of the neighborhood. If traffic congestion doubled, the driving time would double, but the other times would stay constant. Likewise, some places would switch to night delivery if the daytime traffic congestion got too bad. The reason they don't do it now is that the shift differential pay for the drivers, (which is typically around 30% for graveyard, (with less for swing,) although it is more like 15% once you include the the cost of running the truck,) is more expensive than the the delays caused by traffic congestion. In other words, the actual cost of congestion to truck drivers is less than 15% right now, so if traffic congestion doubled, that would still be less than 30%, (and probably quite a bit less, a realistic number would be around 5%-10% more drivers if the traffic congestion doubled, with less than 5%-10% more trucks because some of them would be used for multiple shifts.) Therefor, the realist inflation from congestion doubling would be less than 0.05% which is below the margin of error in the CPI.
16
Ok, the point is people want transit. The major point missed is that the CRC project has transit. No kidding!!! About $1 BILLION worth of Max. So, saying that people want to prioritize Max means they are against the CRC, is plain wrong! The CRC bridge CARRIES MAX. I kid you not. Look it up.
17
The out come really figures when you look at how they set these meetings and polling's up. Set the meeting up in the right places and at the right times to get the people you want to come and you can get the results you want. Never mind that the ones that will be funding all of this will be us who have jobs and don't have the opportunity to be active like their special 1,000 and don't mention that we must have jobs and an economy to fund the frills. This is like asking government workers if they want a raise or asking my kids if they want me to fund all of their wants. The answer is always going to be yes!
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