This Week in the Mercury
Wednesday, February 17, 2010
Transportation Governors Want the CRC to More Closely Resemble WA's Divisive, Expensive Freeway Projects
Posted by Sarah Mirk on Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 3:26 PM
Oh good, it's a letter from Oregon and Washington Governors Ted Kulongoski and Christine Gregoire about the Columbia River Crossing Project! Spurred by a strong coalition of local politicians who say plans for a new $3 billion I-5 bridge have "unacceptable impacts", the two Governors released a letter this morning saying, essentially, "CRC OR BUST!"
We value your advisory role in shaping a project that is essential to maintaining our economic vitality and enhancing the livability of the communities in our two states. Interstate 5 is a major economic corridor for both states and the entire West Coast. We feel strongly this project must move forward without delay.
That's harsh: we value your advisory role and therefore we're going to do the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you advise us to do. In addition to steamrolling forward, the Governors say they will convene for the CRC an "expert review panel, similar to that used in Washington State to review the Alaskan Way Viaduct and State Route 520 projects."
An expert review panel similar to one that worked on the Viaduct and 520?
You mean the panel that came up with the idea to replace a freeway in Seattle with a $4.2 billion deep-bore tunnel under Seattle's downtown? The idea which was rejected by voters and the city's newly-elected mayor, is estimated to run far over budget and was named one of the Four Highway Projects That Would be the Biggest Waste of Money by Infrastructurist?
And the panel that came up with the idea to replace the six-lane floating 520 bridge across Seattle's Lake Washington with a 13-lane wide option straight through a neighborhood which has created a divisive debate which "shows Seattle at its worst"?
Yes! More of this in Portland! Bring on the expert panel! The Governors will appoint the panel of experts ASAP, confirms Kulogoski's office, and their report will be due in May.
Metro Councilor Bragdon's response to the Governors' letter and plan is skeptical. "Any expert panel depends on who hires them and what questions they’re allowed to ask," says Bragdon. "My concern is that this one would just be another part of this on-going pattern of evasions and cover-ups." He's frustrated the state seems to not want to work with local leaders on the CRC. "Those of us on the local level are trying to work together, but every time we work together, the state slams the door in our face."
2
The states have been working with local officials on this for years and years. There are many advisors on the panel, and the local members who wrote the letter are just four of them.
They had their say, the grown-ups said "thanks for your input" and are moving forward.
Portlanders seem to always mistake "I'm not getting exactly what I want" with "there is a grave injustice going on." You can have the first without the latter. Shit doesn't always go your way. That's life.
They had their say, the grown-ups said "thanks for your input" and are moving forward.
Portlanders seem to always mistake "I'm not getting exactly what I want" with "there is a grave injustice going on." You can have the first without the latter. Shit doesn't always go your way. That's life.
3
"He's frustrated the state seems to not want to work with local leaders on the CRC."
That's a shame, but the states were under no real obligation to do that in the first place. I'm frustrated that Zooey Deschanel doesn't want to work me with me, but I guess that's her right.
That's a shame, but the states were under no real obligation to do that in the first place. I'm frustrated that Zooey Deschanel doesn't want to work me with me, but I guess that's her right.
4
What have Bradbury, Dudley and Kitz said about the CRC project? Any chance we can get somebody to state something for or against it?
5
@ Blabby -
I understand that the states have no obligation to do anything our local leaders and residents propose or advise...
But that begs the question, "then why the fuck did you ask, assholes?"
I understand that the states have no obligation to do anything our local leaders and residents propose or advise...
But that begs the question, "then why the fuck did you ask, assholes?"
6
ambrown,
I reported on Kitzhaber and Bradbury's thoughts about the CRC here:
http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/gr…
I reported on Kitzhaber and Bradbury's thoughts about the CRC here:
http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/gr…
7
They asked, and for more than a decade, more rational local leaders worked with them. These local leaders (for instance Tom Potter and Royce Pollard) understood that if you're part of a big collaborative process, you get some things you want, and you get some things you don't want. And after millions in planning and time spent, they moved towards a conclusion.
Then a new group of local leaders, beholden to econazis, bike zealots and planning dimwits, decided they wanted to fuck over the process at the last minute. The adults at the states have correctly replied "too late."
You guys really need to understand how fucking ridiculous people here sound outside of the Portland/Metro planning bubble. Elsewhere in the state, politicians worry about things like jobs. Here we worry about laying streetcar track, and the number of urban chickens people should own.
This isn't a serious place. We don't see it because we live inside the bubble. But people outside look at us like we're from Mars when we bring up our stupid shit.
The issue with the CRC is interstate commerce for the entire West Coast. The issue with the CRC is NOT how much you like your bike. We are children. Grow up.
Then a new group of local leaders, beholden to econazis, bike zealots and planning dimwits, decided they wanted to fuck over the process at the last minute. The adults at the states have correctly replied "too late."
You guys really need to understand how fucking ridiculous people here sound outside of the Portland/Metro planning bubble. Elsewhere in the state, politicians worry about things like jobs. Here we worry about laying streetcar track, and the number of urban chickens people should own.
This isn't a serious place. We don't see it because we live inside the bubble. But people outside look at us like we're from Mars when we bring up our stupid shit.
The issue with the CRC is interstate commerce for the entire West Coast. The issue with the CRC is NOT how much you like your bike. We are children. Grow up.
8
If making condescending insults in web site comment sections every single time the subject of bikes, transportation, or planning come up is the height of maturity, I don't ever wanna grow up.
9
Another example of Sam Adams' lack of credibility. No credibility, no moral authority, no power to do anything big or important. The state can't be bothered with him.
All he can do is cater to special interest groups It going to be a long and miserable three years if he's not recalled.
Sam Adams, resign already. You lied and won, but truly, you've lost.
All he can do is cater to special interest groups It going to be a long and miserable three years if he's not recalled.
Sam Adams, resign already. You lied and won, but truly, you've lost.
10
I told Sam Adams at city hall 2 years ago that he shouldn't sign off on the CRC locally preferred alternative (LPA) because once he did, he lost all control of the project. Sam had some reservations, but ODOT said they'd still listen to him, the LPA vote was just a technicality. ODOT apparently lied. I'd say that we should get the head of ODOT fired over that, but the only person who can fire them is the governor, who is the problem here.
@pdxrocks: He lied about having sex with a porn star. WTF does that have to do with the CRC? Back when I testified Sam wasn't even Mayor, he was a commissioner. I can disagree with him all day long on all sorts of issues, but unless it is about having sex with porn stars, I have a hard time imagining how exactly his lying about it has anything to do with, well anything. Maybe if he was trying to open a male brothel in town or something that issue might be in the least bit relevant.
@pdxrocks: He lied about having sex with a porn star. WTF does that have to do with the CRC? Back when I testified Sam wasn't even Mayor, he was a commissioner. I can disagree with him all day long on all sorts of issues, but unless it is about having sex with porn stars, I have a hard time imagining how exactly his lying about it has anything to do with, well anything. Maybe if he was trying to open a male brothel in town or something that issue might be in the least bit relevant.
11
Blabby, do you really buy that crap about it being about interstate commerce? Then I've got a monorail to sell you...
Trucks going interstate use I205, unless they're heading for downtown Portland (in which case, what Portland wants clearly does matter since it's their traffic). I205 is already signed for them to do so. And it's not at capacity, or even close, yet. Even if it was at capacity, trucks could cross outside of rush-hour. Plus, it's not an argument for needing a wider bridge; you could easily make one or two lanes truck-only, or toll it for everyone except trucks, neither of which are being proposed.
Without Vancouver commuters there would be no congestion. The new bridge is for their benefit, nobody else. If you want to make the argument that their interests matter, fine. If you want to make the argument that their interests matter more than those of us who live within a mile or two of I5 through N Portland, that's up to you (although you won't get very far). But claiming that "it's all about interstate trucking" is disingenuous, and transparently false.
Trucks going interstate use I205, unless they're heading for downtown Portland (in which case, what Portland wants clearly does matter since it's their traffic). I205 is already signed for them to do so. And it's not at capacity, or even close, yet. Even if it was at capacity, trucks could cross outside of rush-hour. Plus, it's not an argument for needing a wider bridge; you could easily make one or two lanes truck-only, or toll it for everyone except trucks, neither of which are being proposed.
Without Vancouver commuters there would be no congestion. The new bridge is for their benefit, nobody else. If you want to make the argument that their interests matter, fine. If you want to make the argument that their interests matter more than those of us who live within a mile or two of I5 through N Portland, that's up to you (although you won't get very far). But claiming that "it's all about interstate trucking" is disingenuous, and transparently false.
13
I doubt all of those tractor trailers in get stuck behind when I had the unfortunate task of driving north to WA are all coming from downtown. That's hockum.
14
@Stu: The trucks use I-5, (not I-205) even at rush hour because it is usually faster, (accidents are statistically random events, so if one happens or not on one road or another it might change any given trip, but I'm talking about the average.) It says a lot about how big this problem really is: The "bypass" that we built in the 70s to solve the "bottleneck" isn't actually needed even now.
I-5 is 4 lanes through most of the state. Want to complain about interstate commerce, fine, go fix the other 75% of that road, (including the 100+ bridges that will fall down in a smaller earthquake than it will take to bring this one down,) before you spend $4.2B on these couple miles. It is like putting a new more powerful engine in a 20 year old car with more rust than body and bald tires. You can do it, but everyone thinks you are stupid.
I-5 is 4 lanes through most of the state. Want to complain about interstate commerce, fine, go fix the other 75% of that road, (including the 100+ bridges that will fall down in a smaller earthquake than it will take to bring this one down,) before you spend $4.2B on these couple miles. It is like putting a new more powerful engine in a 20 year old car with more rust than body and bald tires. You can do it, but everyone thinks you are stupid.
15
4.2 billion dollars. Or a more vivid way of saying it: 4,200 million dollars. For four miles of on-ramps, exit ramps, and freeway (and maybe a mile or so of bridge, too), all to service the wants of commuters who chose cheap houses over proximity to their places of employment. A choice they made of their free will (unless they're going to claim they were "socially engineered" into buying cheap houses on the other side of a very big river). As an Oregon taxpayer, I'll be on the hook for thousands of dollars for this thing, for all those bad choices. And as a Portland resident, I'll be on the receiving end of all the traffic it dumps into my town.
After the year this country has had, the notion of paying lots of money for other peoples' bad choices gets less palatable by the second.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that, in the years this project has been discussed, those who stood to benefit from a monster freeway bridge were heard loud and clear, while the opinions of the rest of us were somehow less vigorously sought out.
After the year this country has had, the notion of paying lots of money for other peoples' bad choices gets less palatable by the second.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that, in the years this project has been discussed, those who stood to benefit from a monster freeway bridge were heard loud and clear, while the opinions of the rest of us were somehow less vigorously sought out.
16
"I-5 is 4 lanes through most of the state." Um, which state are you referring to? 'Cause it isn't Oregon. Washington either, for that matter.
18
@nuovorecord:
This state, particularly here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&…
Here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&…
And here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&…
Although who can forget about this one: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&…
But you are right, I forgot about the other state, like here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&…
here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&…
and here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&…
Although I'll admit that only about half of that state is 4 lanes, compared to 75% of the first one.
(The last picture is interesting, that is just south of the largest city in the Pacific Northwest, if there is justification for building a wider road anywhere, you'd think it would be there...)
More...
This state, particularly here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&…
Here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&…
And here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&…
Although who can forget about this one: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&…
But you are right, I forgot about the other state, like here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&…
here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&…
and here: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&…
Although I'll admit that only about half of that state is 4 lanes, compared to 75% of the first one.
(The last picture is interesting, that is just south of the largest city in the Pacific Northwest, if there is justification for building a wider road anywhere, you'd think it would be there...)
19
"Although who can forget about this one"
I guess I forgot about that one. Right through the Rose Quarter, too.
Another fun CRC fact: the current CRC plan over Hayden Island has it splitting up into >>>18<<< count 'em, 18 lanes of pavement.
I guess I forgot about that one. Right through the Rose Quarter, too.
Another fun CRC fact: the current CRC plan over Hayden Island has it splitting up into >>>18<<< count 'em, 18 lanes of pavement.
20
@ Matthew D - Adams lied and manipulated others to lie for him in order to get elected. He was elected fraudulently. His true character has been exposed and he has no political clout - with the city or the state.
That's what this has to do with the CRC. As I said, all he's capable of doing at this point is pandering to special interest groups. He's incapable of leading, and I'm beginning to think he'd be equally as bad had this scandal never happened.
That's what this has to do with the CRC. As I said, all he's capable of doing at this point is pandering to special interest groups. He's incapable of leading, and I'm beginning to think he'd be equally as bad had this scandal never happened.
21
@pdxrocks: He lied about sex. The only people that have never lied about sex are young ugly christian fundamentalists. Everyone else has either done it with someone they regret and so deny later, or hasn't done it as much as they wanted to and claimed that they did it more in order to impress others. Do you not understand that? Are you a young ugly christian fundamentalist?
As for his, "lack of political clout," have you noticed all the people wanting him to take the police department back over? Want to talk about someone without any political clout, look at Salty. However, compared to "I am irrelevant" Potter, even Salty looks impressive.
Getting back to the CRC, if you didn't notice, 3 of the 4 signatures on the letter calling for more study were not Sam's. ODOT seems to be ignoring those as well. Tell me, what sex acts did Steve Stewart lie about? Or Tim Leavitt? Maybe David Bragdon? They must all go spend time in a hot and heavy BDSM session down at the ODOT officers, since they seem to have no political clout either...
You just don't like him. And that is fine, but don't make this out to be some moral right and wrong about he should resign, debate the actual ISSUES.
As for his, "lack of political clout," have you noticed all the people wanting him to take the police department back over? Want to talk about someone without any political clout, look at Salty. However, compared to "I am irrelevant" Potter, even Salty looks impressive.
Getting back to the CRC, if you didn't notice, 3 of the 4 signatures on the letter calling for more study were not Sam's. ODOT seems to be ignoring those as well. Tell me, what sex acts did Steve Stewart lie about? Or Tim Leavitt? Maybe David Bragdon? They must all go spend time in a hot and heavy BDSM session down at the ODOT officers, since they seem to have no political clout either...
You just don't like him. And that is fine, but don't make this out to be some moral right and wrong about he should resign, debate the actual ISSUES.
22
"And that is fine, but don't make this out to be some moral right and wrong about he should resign, debate the actual ISSUES."
@Matthew D
Don't you remember? The recall isn't about actual issues.
Speaking of recall...anyone know how that's going? No money and did I hear they're getting booted out of their offices?
@Matthew D
Don't you remember? The recall isn't about actual issues.
Speaking of recall...anyone know how that's going? No money and did I hear they're getting booted out of their offices?
23
Our leaders just don't get the fact that the current I-5 bridge is not the problem. The problem lies in the screwed-up mess that it is through Portland. Until that is cleared up, all the new bridges in the world won't unsnarl the traffic. It's that simple. It would help if Oregon and Washington would restrict through truck traffic to I-205, but I guess that is too easy. I am a retired truck driver, and if I had to go through Portland, I always took 205. It's a few miles further (and you pay Oregon per mile, by the way), but it is almost always faster and with much less drama. At least until you get back on I-5, trying to head south in the afternoon, then it becomes a real mess, sometimes as far south as Wilsonville, or further.
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