This Week in the Mercury
Tuesday, March 23, 2010
Cops UPDATED Police Shooting Details: Why Was Taser not Used?
Posted by Sarah Mirk on Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 12:11 PM
- Chief Rosie Sizer: Did not take questions at today's press conference.
No details about the man who was shot yesterday, other than his approximate age and race, are available at this time. The officer who pulled the trigger has still not been formally interviewed by investigators, but the case will head to a grand jury, as is typical with police use of force cases.
At the police press conference, Sizer and Wheat spelled out the police's account of yesterday's events.
The 911 call sheet for the afternoon shows someone called the police at 3:05 PM complaining that a "drunk transient" was yelling at passerby in the arboretum. The caller described the "transient" as a white man in his 50s, wearing a hoodie and jeans, carrying a plastic bag. They noted that he was "not physically violent."
When Officer Jason Walters responded to the call, the man came out of the bathroom at the arboretum, his face, arms and hands covered in blood, wielding a razor knife with a six-inch handle, according to the police account. The officer was alone and was not carrying a beanbag gun. The police have not confirmed what, if any, words were exchanged between the two. "The officer and the subject began moving out of the bathroom area, with the subject still approaching the officer with the razor knife. At this point, the officer fired shots at the subject," reads the police's official statement. The officer immediately called medical personnel, who arrived and pronounced the man dead.
"The issue is that is was an instant decision, the guy comes after him with a knife," says police union President Scott Westerman. "The use of a Taser would have been ideal if it worked 100 percent of the time. If he shoots the Taser and it does not work, there's the possibility that the officer could lose his life, so he chose to use lethal force."
Chief Rosie Sizer acknowledged the concerns of Portlanders about police shootings in the wake of the Aaron Campbell shooting and mentioned her disappointment with last night's police accountability protest. "We understand that police shootings are always of concern to the community and we are working to get you information in a timely and accurate way," said Sizer. "As a Portland police officer and a Portlander, I support our right to free speech. However I am disappointed in the way those rights were exercised last night."
Police spokeswoman Mary Wheat could not answer many of reporters' questions about the case. The medical examiner's office is still working to ID the victim and has not confirmed whether the blood covering the man's face and hands is his own or that of another, as yet unfound, witness.
Portland Copwatch organizer Dan Handelman said he needed to learn more details about this case, but was initially disturbed to learn that the officer jumped to use of lethal force rather than employing non-lethal options. "This goes back to questions about the Campbell case, the Chasse case. Why are people calling the police when someone might wind up dead? I’d really like to learn more about the circumstances," says Handelman. "The man is bleeding, he’s in emotional distress. It’s hard to know what to make of it now. But there are always other options than using lethal force." Handleman, who tracks police use-of-force on the Copwatch website, was not familiar with Officer Walters and could not recall his name attached to any other use-of-force cases.
Update 12:25 pm I forgot to include that I asked Detective Wheat why the police are releasing information about this case now, rather than at the scene last night. Some people, including protesters at last night's march, felt the time lag was a ploy by police to get their story straight. Wheat responded, "It's very important that we are very thorough. We don't want to relate any information that's incorrect. You have to remember that this just happened at 3 o'clock yesterday. Our process is we meet with the detectives on the scene, then we write up the information to give out." There are still witnesses, and of course the officer, who were at the scene who have not been interviewed.
Also, now seems like a relevant time to direct people to the Portland police use-of-force training I sat in on a couple weeks ago teaching officers "When to Shoot."
Update 12:41 PM And in case you're still keeping track of media coverage of this issue (we had our eye on this morning's headlines) check out the Oregonian's coverage of the press conference:
Update 2:59 PM The medical examiner's office completed their autopsy of the victim and reports the man was shot four times, with two shots to his arms and a lethal shot striking an artery in his hip that caused him to bleed to death. Dr. Karen Gunson said that her impression is that the man was a transient due "his dress and his degree of cleaniliness." But she did not find any signs of drunkenness—there were no alcohol containers at the scene and the man did not smell of alcohol, says Gunson. The toxicology report is still out, though, as is a fingerprint check Dr. Gunson hopes will confirm his identity.
2
Imagine that you're a Portland Cop and you just got out of your car after responding to a 911 call. A man is walking towards you bleeding and carrying a knife. You are scared. You tell him to stop, and drop the knife, but he advances -- more quickly -- towards you. Do you:
A). Run away or try to lock yourself in your squad car.
B). Try to wrestle the knife away from him.
C). Retreat, if possible, while trying to deploy your Taser or pepper spray.
D). Shoot the knife out of his hand.
E). Shoot to kill.
Keep in mind that you ran out of time before you finished reading Answer choice A). If he was planning on harming you, you may have already suffered stab wounds, and he may have already grabbed your pistol out of it's holster.
A). Run away or try to lock yourself in your squad car.
B). Try to wrestle the knife away from him.
C). Retreat, if possible, while trying to deploy your Taser or pepper spray.
D). Shoot the knife out of his hand.
E). Shoot to kill.
Keep in mind that you ran out of time before you finished reading Answer choice A). If he was planning on harming you, you may have already suffered stab wounds, and he may have already grabbed your pistol out of it's holster.
3
In all the Taser stories, I've never read one where the Taser malfunctioned. Seems like a cop-out (pun intended).
I would like to believe that something made Walters react the way he did, firing multiple rounds. What that something would be remains a mystery to me.
How far away was he from the drunk transient? Six feet?
Did the transient lunge at him?
How come we're getting reports from witnesses earlier who state they heard "drop it" multiple times, followed by, "I'm not gonna drop it", followed by three shots, yet we're getting conflicting reports from Westerman and the PPB?
What is the reliability rate of the Taser? Oh wait, I can answer that thanks to Google: Malfunctions 13% of the time.
http://www.dggtaser.com/App_Themes/BlueThe…
Not sure if 13% is a rate of reliability I want to be banking on with a bloodied, razor-wielding homeless person, but again, how far away was he?
These are all questions that need to be answered.
I would like to believe that something made Walters react the way he did, firing multiple rounds. What that something would be remains a mystery to me.
How far away was he from the drunk transient? Six feet?
Did the transient lunge at him?
How come we're getting reports from witnesses earlier who state they heard "drop it" multiple times, followed by, "I'm not gonna drop it", followed by three shots, yet we're getting conflicting reports from Westerman and the PPB?
What is the reliability rate of the Taser? Oh wait, I can answer that thanks to Google: Malfunctions 13% of the time.
http://www.dggtaser.com/App_Themes/BlueThe…
Not sure if 13% is a rate of reliability I want to be banking on with a bloodied, razor-wielding homeless person, but again, how far away was he?
These are all questions that need to be answered.
6
"As a Portland police officer and a Portlander, I support peoples' right to free speech."
As if you get to deny us? Shouldn't this go without saying? I think choice of words can be very revealing.
As if you get to deny us? Shouldn't this go without saying? I think choice of words can be very revealing.
7
what's with the comment about the exacto knife having a "6 inch handle"? so what? how long was the actual, you know, blade? 1/2 an inch? the fact that she references the handle size, and somehow assumes that the average reader will take that to mean the blade size, shows that SHE is trying to spin this.
8
This latest incident gets worse and worse as more information comes out. Where's the last straw for City Hall and everyone else in this? How many more people have to die unnecessarily before something is done?!
For me, this tells me I need to:
-Buy a gun for my own protection and that of my family.
-Never call the cops unless someone is in direct danger of violence.
-Start showing up to these rallies and marches.
For me, this tells me I need to:
-Buy a gun for my own protection and that of my family.
-Never call the cops unless someone is in direct danger of violence.
-Start showing up to these rallies and marches.
9
kyle, cops rarely ride with partners these days as studies have shown it results in more aggressive behavior by the cops.
10
@Jackattak - that document lists overall failure rates of 25.5% for the Taser and 31.5% for the Stinger. Which one does the PPD carry? Nice source, btw.
@lokiloki - He didn't say that, he said "imagine." And it was a great write-up.
@lokiloki - He didn't say that, he said "imagine." And it was a great write-up.
11
@BOH - Exactly what details have emerged that make this incident seem worse and worse? We still have a lot of questions, but the only actual details so far make this seem totally cut and dried....
12
How big does a handle have to be before the police use deadly force?
A 6-inch handle is mighty big! I best be careful with my rake and its 4 foot handle!
A 6-inch handle is mighty big! I best be careful with my rake and its 4 foot handle!
13
@Rey The fact that the story keeps changing and we still don't know what this guy did to be shot. What I mean by "worse and worse" is that as we find out these additional snippets, we're finding out there wasn't a reason to use a gun. At least not a gun aimed to kill.
14
@bruce123456 - you're making a lot of assumptions. There was a time disparity of three minutes between when the officer arrived and the shots were fired. And is option A something they teach you in a police academy? If so, it's no wonder police are so inadequately trained to protect civilians (you know, their job). The fact is that this was a trained and seasoned officer and I assume you're not, so the list of options is inherently different.
16
It's a little bizarre to me that people are responding to this as another instance of police thuggery. I'm not a fan of the PPD, and have been appalled by many recent violent acts - but this isn't one of them. A man covered in blood with a knife in his hand advances towards a police officer, after the officer's been called to a popular Portland tourist destination to address a situation. I'm not sure how I would have responded, but firing does not seem out of line here, especially when in all likelihood the officer didn't know whose blood was covering the man, and what mental state he was in. Covered with blood generally equals danger. The officer was not called to a mental health facility where others were around to help him apply restraint - it was a public park. If the officer's name happened to be one of the serial douchebags constantly in trouble for excessive force, I might think different - but based upon what we know so far, I don't think there's much cause for anti-cop rallying. A little perspective, people. If you always come to the same black and white conclusion regardless of circumstances or evidence, you're not thinking very hard.
17
what if his gun had jammed? what if he had tripped and the bullet ricocheted? what if...
it seems the use of deadly force is considered acceptable under almost any circumstances. not that it wasn't a scary situation (and we do not know if it was a "seasoned" officer or a rookie cop), but resort to pulling the trigger appears to be the solution of choice for too many cops. so even if it was warranted here, the appearance is that we have trigger-happy cops -- and that's horrible for any community, warranted or not.
it seems the use of deadly force is considered acceptable under almost any circumstances. not that it wasn't a scary situation (and we do not know if it was a "seasoned" officer or a rookie cop), but resort to pulling the trigger appears to be the solution of choice for too many cops. so even if it was warranted here, the appearance is that we have trigger-happy cops -- and that's horrible for any community, warranted or not.
18
"It's very important that we are very thorough. We don't want to relate any information that's incorrect. You have to remember that this just happened at 3 o'clock yesterday. Our process is we meet with the detectives on the scene, then we write up the information to give out."
Should read: We needed time to craft our message to make it sound like the drunk homeless man who was carry a box cutter and acting like a drunk homeless man with mental issues was really a very violent and intimidating individual who was wielding a most deadly 6 inch long instrument of death with a clear intention of murdering the Police officer. Of course we won't be offering excuses why the police officer couldn't avoid the drunk homeless man who was advancing towards him or why he had to shoot at him 4 times rather than aiming for his leg or somewhere that might have stopped him short of killing him.
Should read: We needed time to craft our message to make it sound like the drunk homeless man who was carry a box cutter and acting like a drunk homeless man with mental issues was really a very violent and intimidating individual who was wielding a most deadly 6 inch long instrument of death with a clear intention of murdering the Police officer. Of course we won't be offering excuses why the police officer couldn't avoid the drunk homeless man who was advancing towards him or why he had to shoot at him 4 times rather than aiming for his leg or somewhere that might have stopped him short of killing him.
19
tabarnhart - The officer was a 13-year vet. Smirk reported it in the first article from yesterday so you might have missed it.
20
Seems weird to say "not physically violent" when his face, arms, and hands were covered in blood...
Anyway, I've never been in a situation where I've had a gun and the authority to use it, and I wasn't at Hoyt during this shooting, but I feel there must be a middle ground somewhere (maybe in the middle?) between taser and shoot 4x to kill. Like, if I was all crazed and wielding a knife and advancing toward a cop, and the cop then shot me in the leg or groin, I would definitely stop advancing at that point.
Anyway, I've never been in a situation where I've had a gun and the authority to use it, and I wasn't at Hoyt during this shooting, but I feel there must be a middle ground somewhere (maybe in the middle?) between taser and shoot 4x to kill. Like, if I was all crazed and wielding a knife and advancing toward a cop, and the cop then shot me in the leg or groin, I would definitely stop advancing at that point.
21
So what happens when they discover it wasn’t a drunken homeless man but one of the snot nosed pimple faced tattooed body pierced skateboard riding texting twittering underachievers employed in city hall that called in sick with women’s issues earlier that morning?
22
@ROM: The only point of shooting someone is to kill them. There is no other way to fire a gun. This is one of the CSI style problems where the entertainment industry has fed us a steady diet of un-realistic expectations.
First rule of handling a gun: Only point a gun at things you are willing to destroy.
First rule of handling a gun: Only point a gun at things you are willing to destroy.
23
As long as there is no accountability, cops will continue to shoot homeless and African American people. Thems the facts
24
I'm sad to say this but PLEASE don't EVER call the Portland Police for ANYTHING unless your own life is threatened.
25
My next door neighbor was a decorated police officer for more than 30 years . He was allways on patroll in PDX and pulled his gun once and never fired . ONCE AND NEVER FIRED !!!!! WTF is wrong with these pigs ? There is almost allways an alternative to taking a life . Even if he is black, homeless, mentally unstable................................................
26
Spoken like someone who's never professionally operated a weapon. Easy does it there, John Wayne. You can indeed fire to maim, not kill.
This story smells fishy. What's a "razor knife?" You can either have a razor. Or a knife. They aren't the same thing. Plus given the PR reliance on describing the handle, I'd be curious if this is a disposable Bic that frightened the officer enough to kill.
I think the "weapon" in question will reveal the truth to his story.
This story smells fishy. What's a "razor knife?" You can either have a razor. Or a knife. They aren't the same thing. Plus given the PR reliance on describing the handle, I'd be curious if this is a disposable Bic that frightened the officer enough to kill.
I think the "weapon" in question will reveal the truth to his story.
27
Don't ever call the Portland police unless you want to commit suicide . If your having problems commiting suicide , they can finish the job for ya .
28
I'd put money on something like this being the terrifying object in the hand of the deceased...
http://media.photobucket.com/image/box%20c…
http://media.photobucket.com/image/box%20c…
29
@Matt - No, he's right. Anyone who uses a weapon professionally should be trained to shoot to kill. That's the only time the weapon comes out. You imply you had a job where you were trained differently - what were you?
30
@Matt - And of course you can have a razor knife. What a weird thing to say. X-acto is the main brand name, but this could have been a razor on a stick.
31
This isn't a hostage situation gone wrong-- this is a guy threatening a police officer wih a weapon.
You can sit behind your computer and split hairs about what constitutes a knife, but if I saw any kind of blade coming at me in real life, I'd take action.
If you want to blame some institution for this, look no further than our statewide mental health crisis. All indicators are that the suspect was unhinged and would ideally have been committed or in treatment rather than on the street threatening people. Even then, people fall through the cracks.
You can sit behind your computer and split hairs about what constitutes a knife, but if I saw any kind of blade coming at me in real life, I'd take action.
If you want to blame some institution for this, look no further than our statewide mental health crisis. All indicators are that the suspect was unhinged and would ideally have been committed or in treatment rather than on the street threatening people. Even then, people fall through the cracks.
32
Rey, Graham and Oddball have it right: the best thing a cop can do in a career is apprehend hundreds, even thousands, of bad guys without ever firing a sidearm.
I remember learning that in something like 3rd grade, when a police officer came into our class to talk about stranger danger or downed power lines or something. Of course, all the 8-year-olds were simply fascinated with his gun.
He very clearly and responsibly explained to us that a police officer hopes to never use a gun, because that would mean someone dies. I understood that as a third-grader. Why doesn't the PPB understand?
I remember learning that in something like 3rd grade, when a police officer came into our class to talk about stranger danger or downed power lines or something. Of course, all the 8-year-olds were simply fascinated with his gun.
He very clearly and responsibly explained to us that a police officer hopes to never use a gun, because that would mean someone dies. I understood that as a third-grader. Why doesn't the PPB understand?
33
Who knows if the guy was simply trying to get AWAY from the cop, rather than run "at" the cop? If you know the layout of the building and where the bathroom is, to get away you must run at (or at least extremely close to) anyone standing nearby.
34
Regarding tasers-- watch COPS sometime. They're not all that foolproof. Sometimes the prongs miss, or they don't fully penetrate clothing. I think it would be difficult to properly, reliably fire one at someone who has his arms up in a fighting stance-- you need a flat area like a back or chest to ensure good contact.
Again, watch COPS and note that they're often used to subdue suspects, who want to wrestle or flee. An immediate threat with a weapon, like a knife, is likely to draw an officer's gun.
Again, watch COPS and note that they're often used to subdue suspects, who want to wrestle or flee. An immediate threat with a weapon, like a knife, is likely to draw an officer's gun.
35
Here is my favorite take on the Oregonian headline, via @Nerdliness on Twitter:
"Better than their alternative headline: 'Nut-job Hobo Got What He Deserved.'"
"Better than their alternative headline: 'Nut-job Hobo Got What He Deserved.'"
36
Rosie Sizer says "As a Portland police officer and a Portlander, I support our right to free speech. However I am disappointed in the way those rights were exercised last night." and I wonder if that is her rightwing fundaloonie side coming out, or is she pissed because her boondoggle at tax-payer expense to London was cut short due to this killing by her minions? You know how odd some of these bureaucrats can get when they're pissed off!
37
"No details about the man who was shot yesterday, other than his approximate age and race..."
I think Cap'n Sizer breathed a sigh of relief after she realized that her cops got the memo asking them to go shoot some white people so they don't look quite so racist. Then quickly called a press conference just to say: "see? We don't _only_ shoot black folks."
I think Cap'n Sizer breathed a sigh of relief after she realized that her cops got the memo asking them to go shoot some white people so they don't look quite so racist. Then quickly called a press conference just to say: "see? We don't _only_ shoot black folks."
38
"The use of a Taser would have been ideal if it worked 100 percent of the time. If he shoots the Taser and it does not work, there's the possibility that the officer could lose his life, so he chose to use lethal force."
guns malfunction. guns don't work 100% of the time.
wtf.
guns malfunction. guns don't work 100% of the time.
wtf.
39
are first amendment rights only available to Portlanders? or is Sizer trying to nullify the complaint that many Portland cops live closer to rural Brush Prairie than to Portland (and, as such, aren't tuned in to this city)?
40
@BOH - I guess I don't understand your point. 'Wouldn't it be nice if no one ever died? Or committed a crime?' Is there any value in typing that out? Does that really seem like an important thing to say, to you?
Sure no one wants to have to kill a crazy man. That's not their mission, and it's not most peoples career choice. But here (all data so far says) we have a man covered in blood trying to attack a cop with a knife. Of course the guy should have been shot.
What are you trying to add to the discussion, saying cops should hope everything goes peacefully? Should they not go to violent calls? Your wonderful neighbor either would have done exactly the same thing or he would be dead, now - which would you rather?
Sure no one wants to have to kill a crazy man. That's not their mission, and it's not most peoples career choice. But here (all data so far says) we have a man covered in blood trying to attack a cop with a knife. Of course the guy should have been shot.
What are you trying to add to the discussion, saying cops should hope everything goes peacefully? Should they not go to violent calls? Your wonderful neighbor either would have done exactly the same thing or he would be dead, now - which would you rather?
41
Okay, this has thread has devolved - I'm out.
You're taking one poorly-worded, well-intentioned phrase from a LIVE speech and holding it up as a sign of something terrible. That'd asinine - Sizer has testified against her own officers in use-of-force cases before.
Combine that will all the people who's point boils down to "I wish nothing bad ever happened!" or "Why didn't he just judo-chop the guy, or use his Bat-gadget? Cops are superheros, right?" and you get a critical mass of idiocy.
You're taking one poorly-worded, well-intentioned phrase from a LIVE speech and holding it up as a sign of something terrible. That'd asinine - Sizer has testified against her own officers in use-of-force cases before.
Combine that will all the people who's point boils down to "I wish nothing bad ever happened!" or "Why didn't he just judo-chop the guy, or use his Bat-gadget? Cops are superheros, right?" and you get a critical mass of idiocy.
42
"police accountability protest"
Let's call it what it was, white anarchist hipster kids trying to show off the new bandanas they got from Hot Topic.
Let's call it what it was, white anarchist hipster kids trying to show off the new bandanas they got from Hot Topic.
43
@Reymont - "attack" was not what was reported. It was "approach." And you're calling the deceased a crazy man. It wasn't just the choice to shoot a man, but to shoot a man in public. You should go check the Oregonian about now.
44
Whose blood was it, Rey? Was anybody hurt by this man?
By all accounts, the headlines would be screaming "Police heroically take down would-be murderer" if he had.
How many times do you walk into a Multnomah County library bathroom and see homeless people in there shaving? How do we know this guy wasn't just shaving and mentally ill?
This situation seems so far removed from meriting the officer drawing his gun. Of course there are still facts to determine, but my point here, Rey, is that police should utilize a firearm ONLY and ALWAYS as a last resort.
With a guy holding a box cutter weaving his way toward you, it seems that pepper spray, a night stick or a variety of other measures would have more appropriately led to the suspect's apprehension and the proper delivery of justice.
By all accounts, the headlines would be screaming "Police heroically take down would-be murderer" if he had.
How many times do you walk into a Multnomah County library bathroom and see homeless people in there shaving? How do we know this guy wasn't just shaving and mentally ill?
This situation seems so far removed from meriting the officer drawing his gun. Of course there are still facts to determine, but my point here, Rey, is that police should utilize a firearm ONLY and ALWAYS as a last resort.
With a guy holding a box cutter weaving his way toward you, it seems that pepper spray, a night stick or a variety of other measures would have more appropriately led to the suspect's apprehension and the proper delivery of justice.
45
If a bloody dude came at me with an X-acto knife, or a steak knife, or a box cutter, or anything sharp ... and I had a gun ... I'd shoot his ass.
46
I fully agree with Demondog. But I think it's a little odd that the officer involved hasn't been questioned yet, at least at the time of the announcement.
47
@ Demondog - Yep. I think that's really what it all boils down to for me, too. I've gone over this situation a few times today after reading and contributing. If this were to happen in my home, that guy would be six times deader than he is now.
49
That's not the point, really Bombero. The point is that it was a threatening situation.
You obviously don't watch very many zombie movies.
You probably don't even have a zombie plan for you and your family, do you?
You obviously don't watch very many zombie movies.
You probably don't even have a zombie plan for you and your family, do you?
50
The militarization of police forces across the country is a problem. You don't think that all the fancy riot gear, assault rifles, armored carriers, laser sighting & black body armor have any effect on the general mentality of law enforcement officers? How can they not consider themselves "at war" with the civilian population when they've been trained and outfitted for one? Intimidation and abuse of force has become so routine that it really shouldn't surprise anyone at this stage.
Politicians are too chickenshit to hold officers accountable for their actions. Nobody listens to the citizens of this city no matter how many stupid acts of petty vandalism they commit or how many "community healing discussions" they earnestly attend.
Best thing for it is to stay out of their way. They can kill you without consequence and they know it. So just stay outta their way.
Politicians are too chickenshit to hold officers accountable for their actions. Nobody listens to the citizens of this city no matter how many stupid acts of petty vandalism they commit or how many "community healing discussions" they earnestly attend.
Best thing for it is to stay out of their way. They can kill you without consequence and they know it. So just stay outta their way.
51
I think they stated that he had not been interviewed by an investigator yet. He must have given some information or they couldn't have even given the statements they've given. It's one thing to give the chief information, it's another to answer questions in a formal investigation. It may sound like splitting hairs, but I think that is what is going on here. Naturally, we shouldn't jump to any conclusions until all the facts are in. But if it happened like they say, I'd shoot him too. Werd.
52
Whoa, whoa, Jackattak. The first time I ever tried to watch a zombie movie I picked up the movie "Zombie Lake" from Hollywood Video when I was 13. So, for many years I thought zombies spoke in a foreign language, befriended little girls and liked to watch naked women swim in a lake. You're right: I don't really have a plan for zombie invasion. Is there a kit somewhere?
53
LOL not that I know of (I built my own) but just remember: They're usually covered in blood and acting erratic! Also, if the Romero movies are all correct, they usually first appear by the woods.
If I were Officer Walters yesterday, the first thing that would've popped in my head would've been, "OMG. This is a real life zombie."
I would've been scared shitless, and I've been in my share of real-life scary situations.
If I were Officer Walters yesterday, the first thing that would've popped in my head would've been, "OMG. This is a real life zombie."
I would've been scared shitless, and I've been in my share of real-life scary situations.
54
Jackattak.....Then why would you shoot him? The first lesson in taking out a zombie is to destroy the brain or disconnect the head!
If this were, in fact, a zombie, then the officer would have been an idiot to pull his sidearm. Should have taken his night stick and knocked him down and then stomped on his head. Or used a crowbar.
But not a gun.
If this were, in fact, a zombie, then the officer would have been an idiot to pull his sidearm. Should have taken his night stick and knocked him down and then stomped on his head. Or used a crowbar.
But not a gun.
55
Not necessarily, BOH.
All it really takes is trauma to the brain. All he'd have to do is shoot it in the head.
I dunno 'bout you, but I wouldn't want to get close enough to have to use the nightstick.
All it really takes is trauma to the brain. All he'd have to do is shoot it in the head.
I dunno 'bout you, but I wouldn't want to get close enough to have to use the nightstick.
56
So, am I the only one here on spring break? Because the way I see it, you assholes need to get back to work! Wasting all goddamn day making asinine internet comments! (if you're unemployed) for fuck's sake, get outside! it's beautiful today. don't make me take off my belt!
57
From the description of the deceaseds' bullet wounds, the officer was trying to STOP him, but not necessarily KILL him. Otherwise, the wounds would have been in the center of mass. That is where the officers are rrained to shoot. The NYPD has so much trouble with tweakers just absorbing the bullets, that they aim for the groin area, in hopes of breaking the pelvic bone. You can't attack someone if you can't atand up, no matter how high you are. This (the local incident) sounds like it was suicide by cop. I feel sorry for the officer, in this case. I think he did what he had to do. And for all you naysayers, you can't tell what you would do if you were faced with this problem.
58
ujfoyt -
I initially thought the same thing. Now I think it was panic fire, honestly. He was all over the place. I'd also like to know where the fourth bullet hit home. If it was the other arm, there's probably some merit to Walters trying to stop him, not kill him.
It's all speculation 'til we here from Walters, anyway. I suspect we'll here he got rushed, though. The witnesses say they heard "bang bang bang", which seems to me that it was panic fire in rapid succession, not "bang" ok he's not stopping "bang" ok still not stopping "bang" ok he stopped.
Whatevs. All speculation.
I initially thought the same thing. Now I think it was panic fire, honestly. He was all over the place. I'd also like to know where the fourth bullet hit home. If it was the other arm, there's probably some merit to Walters trying to stop him, not kill him.
It's all speculation 'til we here from Walters, anyway. I suspect we'll here he got rushed, though. The witnesses say they heard "bang bang bang", which seems to me that it was panic fire in rapid succession, not "bang" ok he's not stopping "bang" ok still not stopping "bang" ok he stopped.
Whatevs. All speculation.
59
I seem to recall reading somewhere that is totally justified to use deadly force on a knife wielding attacker if he is within 20 feet of you. A person can cover 20 feet in a very short time. Also, the police are not paid to be cut by a knife, rather than stopping the perp in some other way.
60
I don't disagree at all, ujfoyt. Based on the information we have, I believe that Walters was justified in shooting the transient.
I do, however, have some questions that I'd like answered.
I do, however, have some questions that I'd like answered.
61
Yes, if you come at a cop with a razor, do expect to get shot.
However, 4 times? Why was that necessary?
I'm pretty sure he would have gotten the idea after the first one, or maybe even a warning shot.
But no, someone still thought they were playing Call of Duty and just kept firing.
It's not the use of force that disturbs me, it's the use of waaaay more force than ever should have been necessary.
However, 4 times? Why was that necessary?
I'm pretty sure he would have gotten the idea after the first one, or maybe even a warning shot.
But no, someone still thought they were playing Call of Duty and just kept firing.
It's not the use of force that disturbs me, it's the use of waaaay more force than ever should have been necessary.
62
They are trained to keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. I doubt the officer even knew how many times he fired, given the adrenalin and fear he was experiencing.
City and County politicians have been neglecting the drug addicts and mentally ill for years: blame them, not the Police Bureau.
City and County politicians have been neglecting the drug addicts and mentally ill for years: blame them, not the Police Bureau.
63
@Suburban Porn King - The reason she stated the length of the handle is not to mislead the audience. The point is that a razor blade without a handle is not much of a threat since it cannot be swung or be used with any type of leverage. A 6 inch handle allows a positive grip on the blade so that it can be slashed.
@Mollymaverick - You are questioning why he had to shoot the man 4 times? Really. Have you ever been shot? Have you ever shot somebody? Have you ever had any sort of ballistics training what-so-ever? I didn't think so. People don't usually go down after one shot. I once saw an enemy combatant shot in the chest with an M16, an M249 machine gun and he still managed to sit up off the ground and return fire with his AK47 before an M240G finally put him down all the way.
@Mollymaverick - You are questioning why he had to shoot the man 4 times? Really. Have you ever been shot? Have you ever shot somebody? Have you ever had any sort of ballistics training what-so-ever? I didn't think so. People don't usually go down after one shot. I once saw an enemy combatant shot in the chest with an M16, an M249 machine gun and he still managed to sit up off the ground and return fire with his AK47 before an M240G finally put him down all the way.
64
And to the rest of you talking about "panic fire" and "he was trying to disable, not kill"... I call bull. When there is that much adrenaline running through your body, shooting a pistol and hitting "center mass" is damn hard to do. Try going for a 50 yard dash, and then shooting at a human sized target 20 feet away. It will probably look like a short barreled open choke shotgun just hit it. With a rifle, I would expect center mass hits... with a pistol (And I mean a 9mm+ pistol, not your grandfather's autoloading .22)? Doubtful.
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